I am now ready to tackle a Wing blade - what brand do you recommend, and how should I size?
Thanks for your advice!
Wing Paddle
(23 posts) (10 voices)-
BeastOarman,
Epic is the most popular brand in the USA. They currently make three sizes, a large wing, a mid wing, and a small mid-wing. Rumor has it, that they are making a smaller "long-distance/training wing", but that project has been in the works for years, so I wouldn't hold your breath.
To generalize, sprint racers often use the large wing (with a stiff shaft). Racers who compete in 10 mile races or less often use the mid-wing (usually with the more flexible burgundy shaft). For smaller people, or for longer mile races, and for touring, the small-mid-wing is popular.
The longer the race, the smaller the blade you should use IMO. While I see a lot of tribers using a mid-wing for the EC, I read lots of accounts of sore wrists, elbows, etc. While some of these issues can be prevented by good technique, IMO you should use the smallest blade that gets the job done. Doing so is easier on your body and is more inline with the philosophy of "keep the boat moving".
For races like the EC I recommend the small mid-wing or smaller. I'm actually using a junior/women's size paddle, an ONNO endurance wing. As the miles accumulate a blade that is too big will only wear you down. I have used a small-mid wing and a Greenland paddle as back-up paddles. I'm currently making a new Greenland paddle to fit my 18X and plan to use it extensively next year.
I had a very interesting session with Lee McGregor in Stuart last year (he is the father and coach of Hank McGregor). He looked over the class where almost everyone had a mid-wing (regardless of their physical condition) and asked who in the class can bench-press 250-300 pounds. No one raised their hand. He then went on to say that is the target group for the mid-wing and large wing -- 20 year old Olympic hopefuls who pump serious iron. He mentioned that he regularly wins races with a child-sized wing, and recommended that you don't let your ego choose a bigger blade. I couldn't agree more.
Epic has a "wizard" on their website to help you with paddle length, etc. 208-215 is a very common length for the small-midwing and midwing. The Epic paddles have a "lever-lock" that allows you to set the length and precise feather angle you want. I use unfeathered and also adjust the length of the paddle on the fly (shorter for fighting headwinds, and longer for downwind).
Having said all this, paddles are such extremely personal items that it's impossible to generalize. I can only give my preferences and what works for me. As they say, "your milage may vary".
Greg
Posted 7 years ago # -
I like the mid wing, I'm just home from a trip, we paddled 320km in seven days , all but one was with a wing , the wing is also good with the sail.
Geting traning is a grate way to go , i was fortunat enough to do a half day with Oska Shalumski from epic late last year. One of the things he mentiond was changing gears throughout the race starting long and pushing it in short . I'm 6'2" and find 210 a good length , body rotation is kee to good form the tide race seating position is the best iv had . I have a mid wing , I'm keen to try a small mid wing . With the night of my stroke and the amount of rotation I set my blade to 50 deg.Posted 7 years ago # -
BeastOarman,
I should add that regardless of the wing you choose, it helps to get good instruction as the technique for a wing may be different from what you are accustomed to. Marty Sullivan (Salty Frog) and I had a very well-attended Watertribe stroke clinic last year, and there's been some talk of holding another this year.
Personal instruction is best, but I highly recommend the Greg Barton and Oscar Chalupsky's "The Kayak Forward Stroke" DVD as a reference.
Best,
Greg
Posted 7 years ago # -
Scareman
MemberI was fortunate to spend time with both Oscar and Greg last April while we were working at the East Coast Paddlesports and Outdoor Festival in Charleston, SC. I finally took their forward stroke class, got the card, and it helped me. Oscar brought an energy to the clinic that helped something click in me. After all, I have observed Greg teach this class at this festival before. As noted above, two good points are smaller blade for longer events and adjusting paddle length to change the gearing.
In the early mornings before the daily festival activities started, I was already on the water when both Oscar and Greg were out training for Moloka'i. That experience provided me with rare on-water perspectives of their nonfiltered and full speed training sessions.
The best part of the weekend was having lunch with Oscar, and chatting a bit about his Moloka'i adventures.
Do you ride a single speed mountain bike? No. So why would you paddle with the same paddle length as conditions evolve and change? Adjustable paddle lengths help you affect the gearing of your paddle. Big gearing can hurt you, which is why the USCF (cycling) restricted the larger gearing for juniors back when I was racing bikes.
I invited Oscar to join us at Ft DeSoto...
Posted 7 years ago # -
Feks,
In America, Barton's and Chalupsky's forward stroke video is widely available. You can get it from Epic at https://www.epickayaks.com/product/product/forward-stroke-dvd . It's also available on amazon and elsewhere. I'm not sure what the best source would be for your locale.
Another popular video is "The Brent Reitz Forward Stroke Clinic Sea Kayaking DVD", available at http://www.wildsprint.com/site/index.php/store/
This DVD is getting old (as is the Barton video) but is still helpful. Brent is a super paddle and excellent instructor, that said, he is a fan of the "chicken-wing" stroke (where you raise your upper arm and forearm to a horizontal position). I don't personally care for that variation. Apparently its a helpful to align your joints if you have wrists issues, and some people love it, but the elbow lift is harder on my shoulders.
Best,
Greg StamerPosted 7 years ago # -
Hears a coppy of a post from another forum, I know the or ther well and he wont mind me coping it, it is a bit relevant to this topic , Mark is a sea instructor and part owner of Expedition kayaks in Australia and one of the clinic organisers for Oscar in Australia
It's a simple process to work out your feather angle.Get a split paddle, loosen the joiner so the two halves rotate.
Twist to your normal entry point or set up, put the catch blade into the water at an angle perpendicular to the hull.
Twist the other half until your wrists are neutral, and that's your feather, as defined by the style, technically, biomechanically sound or otherwise, that you have developed.
This is different to what you'd teach new paddlers of course, where you'd be stressing a good twist, and neutral wrists maximising power. And by definition, for a person with reasonable core flexibility, that's somewhere around 60 degrees.
Remember the strain injuries caused by forward stroke are most commonly caused not by bending joints alone, but by joints bending under load. You can cock your wrists to hell whilst the paddle is out of the water, but do it through a power phase & you're exposing a tinly little joint to power it wasn't designed to withstand over & over.
To extrapolate this to another sport & suggest a radically lower feather angle is 'the way to go' as opposed to 'my way to go', would be like a cricket coach suggesting that because he's great at angling his bat & hitting balls through cover that would normally go to mid on, it's also 'the way to go'. You'll probably have the odd good day, but you'll get out more often than succeed, just like the England cricket team.
If you surveyed paddlers who have come through a formal coaching structure, usually in racing, you'd find them all following a similar pattern, maybe dropping feather angle as they get older & less able to 'twist' as far. That's adaption, improvisation, built on a solid grasp of universal basics. Like a technically correct batsman who is able to angle his bat & hit balls over cover, because his technical base is so strong.
So beware of broad brush statements, however well intentioned, that say '30 is the way to go'. I think '30 is my way to go' followed by a defendable argument, would be advice better followed, and there are a few of them in this post. We sea kayakers tend to start this caper late in our athletic lives & are mostly self taught, which is why there is such variation in what is considered 'the way to go', compared to disciplines which have concentrated technique coaching.
Mark.
Posted 7 years ago # -
I have a Brasca 4, my first and only wing paddle to date. I was able to hold an epic paddle in my hands and I didn't want to let go of it! My Brasca also has a round shaft and that bugs me , the epic has an elliptical shaft and that's much easier to keep your hands in the right place.
Posted 7 years ago # -
IronBob,
ONNO is a one-man operation. What Patrick produces is very high quality and he can customize it to your requirements (e.g. he can tune your blades for weight/durability, etc). The downside is that it can take a frustratingly long time to receive your product as everyone is competing for his time. It took me about 8 months to receive my paddle. Order early.
The ONNO website is at http://www.onnopaddles.com . The model that I'm using is the Small Endurance Race wing. I went with the solid carbon blades for durability, at Patrick's recommendation. He also offers cored carbon blades that are slightly lighter. My ONNO is 22.2 oz as compared to 23.1 oz for my Epic Mid-wing. Patrick and I corresponded extensively to pick the correct layup, length, etc. He answered any and all questions that I had.
Note to anyone going to a smaller blade or shorter shaft -- it takes time to get accustomed to it. At first the normal reaction is "OMG! there isn't enough bite!" but before you know it your speed is the same as before and your stroke has improved. For me, the small endurance wing has more than enough power to deal with surf, side surfing, etc, yet is managable for an EC or longer races.
The paddle shaft is finely sanded and comfortable. The shaft is round; I prefer an ovaled shaft to allow you to feel the blade orientation. When you pick up the paddle after a stop and start paddling again make very sure the blade is oriented properly, especially at night! I have almost capsized twice from being careless and starting my stroke with a slightly diving blade angle. Once you are moving it's not a problem.
The lever-lock, an ONNO innovation, is machined from aluminum (Epic and others used to use fussy locking collars but now make a copy). It is well made. Being able to adjust the paddle length on the fly is something that I consider mandatory. That said, I had some trouble with the shaft getting "stuck" while in Florida Bay this year, after after several days in the hot sun and salt. After some rinsing, sanding and cleaning and it is working fine again. As an aside, Oscar Chalupky looked over the paddle and told me that Epic makes their lever locks in plastic to prevent corrosion/heat expansion.
The paddle is pricey but I recommend it (if you don't need it soon). Perhaps the most telling factor is that I would replace mine if something happened to it.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Feks,
The ONNO small endurance wing is much smaller than the Epic small-mid wing. More details are on their website. Here is how a few blades compare.
Visually there's not much difference between the Epic Mid and Small Mid, but you can feel the difference. I really don't consider the Epic small-mid to be a "petite" blade, but I personally would use it over the Mid on very long trips like an EC.
Epic Mid Wing 19.7" (50 cm) X 6.5" (16.4 cm)
Epic Small Mid Wing 19.6" (49.9 cm) X 6.3" (15.9 cm)
ONNO Mid Endurance Race Wing 19.375" X 6.5"
ONNO Smaller Mid Wing 19.25" X 6.375"
ONNO Small Endurance Wing (what I'm using) 18" X 6"
Blacklight Greenland (blade only) 33" X 3 3/8"Posted 7 years ago # -
IronBob
MemberBeastOarman, thank you for starting this thread. It has ended up very informative!
Vagabond, good info. Based on your input and on my criteria, I'll be getting an ONNO Small Endurance Wing and solid core based upon your recommendation. The size of this paddle is very close to the Quick Blade 'Sydney' which I've been using for years now.
I paddled for a long time with an Epic Mid but found I liked the Quick Blade Sydney much better for many reasons. My reason for leaving Quick Blade and going to ONNO is simply that QB doesn't make kayak paddles any longer, oh well...
I haven't decided on 1 piece or a 2 piece yet or on the length. I've been paddling a one piece for so long, don't know if I need to mess with the lever lock. As to length, I've been swinging 210 cm for years so will probably stay with that. Greg, your thoughts?
I'm actually glad the shaft is oval. I find it more versatile. Again, I've been using an oval shaft for years. I paddle about 99.9% of the time with thumbs over the shaft. This past EC, with the light winds such that they were, I never put my thumbs under. During EC 2013 on the afternoon of the 2nd day when the wind came up a little, I put one thumb under and would alternate hands with that configuration. I've never missed my stroke or a brace because the shaft was round. At certain times, I've failed at my roll but that would not be because of hand position. If we think about it, the paddle's imbalance can give us the clue we need for hand position and blade orientation.
Well - better get to ordering if the wait is going to be that long!
Posted 7 years ago # -
Santiago
MemberIf anybody is looking to buy a like-new Epic Mid Wing, I have one I will part with. I bought it less than a year ago and decided not to take it on the EC this year. If I don't sell it, I will keep it for training and for shorter trips. It really is a great paddle, but I just need to get rid of some "stuff". Still working to get one car in my two-car garage.
Posted 7 years ago # -
IronBob,
Just to clarify, the ONNO shafts are round, not oval.
I'm spoiled by Greenland paddles when it comes to blade orientation. Since your fingers drape over the roots of the blades there is never any question as to how the blade is oriented, even at night, underwater, etc. I also find if I relax my grip with a GP that the blades will self-align (hang vertically). With a wing if I completely open my grip the blade flops forward into a horizontal position.
Most people get a two-piece as this makes travel easier and lets you adjust the length on-the-fly, but I assume Patrick will make any configuration you want.
Your paddle length may have to change if the endurance wing blades are shorter than your current blade. For example, if the blades are shorter, and the shaft is the same length as what you use now, the overall paddle length will still be shorter (since you only bury the blade to the throat). This can be confusing, but Patrick worked with me on this and I ended up with the correct length. For example, my Epic Small Mid Wing is a 205-215cm but my ONNO small endurance wing is 195-205cm .
Posted 7 years ago # -
IronBob
MemberThanks Greg. Yes, I meant ROUND, duh. Glad the ONNO shaft is round. My current paddle shaft is round. Round works well with my thumbs over the shaft technique. Round IB, round. Duh. I think I need a new brain to go with a new paddle.
Good advice on length, a good point for everyone to keep in mind. Actually my QB Sydney blade is 18" as is the ONNO Small Endurance Wing.
Fun stuff, thinking about a new paddle.
Posted 7 years ago # -
IB,
I was pretty sure you meant round, especially by your description, but I wanted to double-check before you dropped a couple of Franklin's on something that didn't suit you (now that would be a real DOH!) :)
Greg
Posted 7 years ago # -
MadTortoise
Memberi ve been using an onno wing for about 12 years now and i love it the best thing about these is patricks experience in matching the paddle to your cicumstance. ive bought 2 paddles from him by describing my build,boat , and paddling style he's come up with 2 perfect paddles. beside the wing i also bought the full tour to push a tandem [with only 1 person paddling] do to the adjustable shaft i can also us it for my plastic sot. what i love about these blades are the solid feel ,it's like digging into cement.im now reluctant to let anyone try the full tour due to the difficult in getting it back. on another note as much as i love my wing paddle i might consider that full tour blade for something like the watertribe events it allows for more variation in stroke and tolerates a little more sloppiness that comes with 18 hours of paddling. and yes he does take a long time to get around to build your paddle [ i order the paddle when i start building the boat so it works out] if i was in a hurry i might try paying half to start and half when he finishes. all in all an unbeatable value
Posted 7 years ago # -
Re the last post, I cary both a wing and a euro, then I can deside the best paddle for the day, you need to carry a spear eny how so why not cary a mixed pear. In my new pace17 I youse the mid wing 99% of the time the boat is designed to glide and the combination of rudder and wing down hill is grate !I'm even loving it when I get into big 4m running seas.
Posted 7 years ago #
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