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wet suit vs dry suit

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Started 7 years ago by MarlinBrando
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MarlinBrando
Member

I figured that I would pose this question here. Figuring on a budget. What would be best yet least expensive. Wet suit or drysuit? I know that drysuits are out of my price range for a single item purchase. But would a wet suit work for the EC?

Some back ground on me. I have been free diving up here in CT and northern VT for longer than I can remember. I have swam spring and fall. Cold water or not. My parents tought me how to get warm and stay warm once out. And free diving I have never been bothered by the cold, in fact I find the temperture rather pleasent down deep. (Heck today I would have dove right off a cliff into waters along the devels hopyard river ((in my birthday suit)) if it weren't for a boyscout troop fishing along the other bank) there was a rather nice bone handled knife.... Everything else equipment wise I have experience with except wet/dry suits.

So what say you?

Posted 7 years ago #
Macatawa
Member

I think you will find that there is little wiggle room on this topic and a drysuit will be required. Having used both, I would choose the drysuit any day... so much more comfortable, especially if you have to keep it on for a few days in a row...

I don't own one of these, but they look interesting and are very reasonably priced:

http://www.mythicdrysuits.com/collections/drysuits

Posted 7 years ago #
BeastOarman
Member

MB -

I may have an extra dry suit. Let me check.

- Peter

Posted 7 years ago #
CleanSlate
Member

There is a big difference between spending a couple hours in wet cold conditions and spending a dozen or more hours. A dry suit can better maintain your core temoerature over long periods of being in a wet cold environment.

Posted 7 years ago #
PainenDias
Blocked

DonKeyHoTey and I went into the water a little after midnight. He was wearing a dry suit, I was wearing GoreTex foul weather gear with a bib. For the next 3 hours we thrashed about either in the Lightning, perching on the bottom of the Lightning, or hanging off the side of the Lightning! I was really wishing I had not done such a dandy job of waxing the bottom after the centerboard clunked into the well and we turtled completely! I would have donned my dry suit, but that was not going to happen because it was in a drybag that had long departed the vicinity. We sat on that slippery bottom for about an hour burping water out of the dry suit and me enjoying the polyproplene FrogTog suit I had on under the layers of GoreTex. Thank you MisterMoon for disqualifying me in the 2014 EC because I really put some time into exploring many possibilities when it came to undergarments. It was not unduly cold, but I did not stay submerged for a second longer than necessary and waves were breaking over the boat. Once we had rested a bit we dove back into the water to get more substantial lines to right the boat. It was quite satisfying as that shiny Lightning centerboard clunked into the down position as the boat came upright. DonKeyHoTey was delighted as he said he had never capsized a Lightning before and it came up much more easily than he had ever imagined!

The boat was awash but we quickly deployed the anchor and took stock of the situation. It would be 4 hours until daybreak. Rowing was out with one oar gone. The foremast was bent back above the joint, the mizzen was sheared off about 6 feet up. We were buoyant but the anchor held the bow into the waves, which then broke over the boat as we submerged. Moving about the boat was a dicey proposition with the possibility of a capsize always present. We moved amidships and maintained stability by standing on opposite sides of the broken mast while straddling the roll bars with our legs and leaning on the mizzen boom and sail. There would be no sitting down as long as the boat was upright because we were shifting our weight to counteract the rolling motion imparted by wind and waves. This also kept the water level below our knees and preventged hypothermia. I took a nap with my head on the boom and the spinnaker we plucked out of the water to avoid entanglement. Comfy!

Dawn broke, and so did we! Our lovely Lightning could be sailed, but only if we could dewater her. The wind and waves continued to build and not liking our chances of sailing the roughly 18 miles to Flamingo or the 36 miles to Islamorada underwater we reluctantly made the decision to punch the fool buttons on our Spot and both PLBs. A little over 2 hours later we welcomed the helecopter from Miami Station overhead and a half hour later the big rib from Marathon arrived. We were instructed to abandone the Lightning and board te rib. We did! No arguing. An hour later we were on te dock at Flamingo with ground support on the way as our support team rerouted from Key Largo, to Flamingo. The mixed crew of the Coast Guard were very professional and complimented us on our preparedness! One of them remarked ''you guys are really geared up", and how easy we made it to find us having waited until daylight, having radio beacons, and staying with the boat. I blew mh whisgtle just for fun!

Not the best way to end a camping trip, and further adventures would ensue before we recovered the Lightning nearly two weeks later after someone cut the anchior line! It drifted another 15 miles before our prodder and the Really Simple Sails balanced lugsail snagged on a lobster pot float and the Coast Guard called with approximate coordinates after a boater spotted her out in the Gulf of Mexico. Perfect ending!

Now, if I was gonna do this stupid stuff all over again I would beach somewhere around Middle Cape Sable and relax until daybreak. If I was going swimming again I would pick the dry suit with all the polypropylene underneath and the GoreTex on top as a dry suit is really not that warm without some bulk. I was really bummed that I lost my favorite yellow raincoat. It may have looked stupid but it was really confortable, blocked wind and water, and easilhy slipped over the flotation jacket and equipment.

As I said, I will take a dry suit. Every time! But circumstances may not allow you the luxury of having it on when you dump. I was asleep prior to our hitting East Cape Sable and the severity of the weather change from a few hours previous was an unpleasant surprize. So much for being an expert. This little camping trip certainly resulted in the greatest adventure of my entire life far surpassing any other experiencs. It provided us with many hours of severe self-flagellating criticism as we discussed our mistakes. Not to mention our friends who after the initial relief of seeung us survive began the well-deserved barrage of derision. We must have developed a thick skin from all the time spent in salt watera, but we will be taking a less gung-ho approach in the future. And tie things down better as every locker on the boat was opened in the waves.

Posted 7 years ago #
Coastie
Member

A drysuit is essential for the Everglades Challenge. On our Hobie Getaway (Miss Marie), we wear our drysuit for the entire challenge.....regardless of the weather. If it is cold, I layer up with 2 or 3 dryfit shirts and one or two lightweight sail pants and fleece or runner pants. If it is warm, only a tee shirt and swim trunks under the drysuit. In EC2013 we flipped our boat offshore north of Venice Inlet. Obviously, it was an unexpected event.....but we are very familiar with re-righting our Hobie, so we weren't in the water for too long. However, we would have been extremely cold, and in rough shape, if we weren't in our drysuits. We lost a couple charts, one paddle, and our boom box.....but we were dry and warm. I can't speak for the kayak folks, but if you are in a cat, trimaran, or mono hull, I would highly recommend being in your drysuit. Flipping or capsizing your vessel usually happens when least expected.......and you won't have time to dig through your overnight bag when you are floundering in cold water. I assume that whoever was rescued with "hypothermia or the being close to hypothermia" in Tampa Bay in the first few hours of EC2015 were ill prepared and not wearing a drysuit.

Posted 7 years ago #
MisterMoon
Member

Painedias, what prevented you from bailing?

Posted 7 years ago #
Bermudaboy
Member

I packed a dry suit for EC & NCC100, but did not take out of dry bag. Sure was a comfort knowing that I had one in case something bad happened and I was going to be stuck out on the water for a long time.

Posted 7 years ago #
PainenDias
Blocked

Hi MisterMoon. The Lightning centerboard is several inches lower in the boat and water kept coming up. We debated plugging the well, but the waves were breaking over the bow. DonKeyHoTey suggested surrounding the entire boat with the spinnaker and hoisting it up like a giant condom from the front, plugging the well, and then bailing out the back. We could also have pulled up the anchor and floated out into the intracoastal where chances of being seen were better. We could have rowed north with one oar and let the tide pull us in behind Cape Sable. We could have gotten a tow from anyone and let the bailers and window in the stern suck the water down. We might have tried blowing air into the bow compartment with the inflator we had up in there and raise the bow. We should have tied in the flotation bags better. We had 3 or 4 floats and maybe we could have jumped in the water and tied them under the keel amidships. We could have stopped on the beach instead of being stupid! We could have just sailed onto the sand flats where the waves were less while we could still sail. Now we got busted and bent masts although we thought we could sail by shifting the foremast to the center position if we could de-water the boat. We could have stayed out there all day, like we did all night, but the kicker was the wind and waves increased the whole time we were there and when we got back later that afternoon with a 22 foot flats boat we were not able to get to the boat because the Captain said it was just too rough! Lots of hindsight and woulda, shoulda, coulda's. That is why I took a hard look at your Core Sound and that beautiful big locker you were adding to the back end. That would have completely eliminated our problem no matter how many times we rolled over. Keep a good percentage dry and things will take care of themselves. It is all my fault anyway and I really had to talk DonKeyHoTey into pushing those buttons. I don't know if I would have done that if I had known we would be leaving the boat out there. So there we were, two geriatrics standing across the boom, looking in each others eyes and knowing we had done it to ourselves! No excuses! Learn from it and carry on. We had a great camping trip, a great adventure, and it was time to throw in a big shovel full of caution because I did not want to go swimming. East Cape Sable was 5 miles in the distance with wind and tide pushing toward the Gulf of Mexico. We had beacons and Spot. No sense not using them because going down with the ship was even stupider than we had been the last 10 hours. The worst thing for all of you Class 4 guys is we did not go down with the ship and we still have it. We will be back for future challenges and that little Lightning is a rocketship and we know we can right it in adverse conditions. A little flotation, some sailing experience, and better planning and you may only see the back of the boat next time!

Posted 7 years ago #
MisterMoon
Member

Thanks for that Painen. I had suspected the open CB slot was the issue. I know from experience that it's really hard to bail a boat when there's a 4' long x 2 /1/2" wide hole in the bottom of the boat than you can't plug. Fothering the hole with the spinnaker would have been a pretty good idea, I think.

If anything this really points out the importance of adequate floation for any boat, but particularly boats with open centerboard slots below the level of the gunwales. My own boat now has nine separate built-in floatation/storage compartments with watertight hatches. I know from experience when it capsizes, it comes back up with only 20 or so gallons to bail while still floating quite high.

There were boats on the beach with the aforementioned open centerboard slots well below the level of the gunwales, no built-in compartmentalized floatation, and only a couple of fenders and their beach rollers for floation. I doubt very seriously they would be recoverable in capsize.

My biggest concern now is turtling in a capsize. About the only place on the whole EC course (including up to 10 miles offshore) deep enough to turtle without bending or breaking the rig is the shipping channel in the middle of Tampa Bay, not that I recommend capsizing there for obvious reasons. I like the masthead floatation Wayfarer sailors put on their boats and will be making and experimenting with a similar arrangement for my boat.

Posted 7 years ago #
Sirtackalot
Member

If you are not sure, Just rent a dry suit. About $200 for a 7 day event like the Everglades challenge.

Posted 7 years ago #
MarlinBrando
Member

I like the link that Macatawa posted. Rather affordable to what I have found as of late. And that thank you Peter. We need to plan something this summer. I also like the idea that mistermoon posted for top mast floatation. Although my ship will be a trimaran, I also worry about damage to my rig from striking the bottom. That will be a fun day in the lake. My friends are determined to capsize her, and I'm determined to show she can be righted without help

Posted 7 years ago #
Badger
Member

I've often wondered if a gaff rig could carry a bouyancy bag lashed along the gaff boom. Although there would be a windage penalty, it would be along the long axis, and hopefully not extreme. My mast is sealed, for whatever good that will do.

Every Naptown Boat Show I go up to Mustang and Switlick and such and ask why they do not create an automatic inflating mast bouyancy aid. I went to the extent of mounting a Mustang CO2 cartridge on a Holt Bag, but you need better plastic welds for it to hold air under pressure. Should be a Kickstarter idea.

Posted 7 years ago #
Fairlane
Member

Badger wrote:

I've often wondered if a gaff rig could carry a bouyancy bag lashed along the gaff boom. Although there would be a windage penalty, it would be along the long axis, and hopefully not extreme. My mast is sealed, for whatever good that will do.

Every Naptown Boat Show I go up to Mustang and Switlick and such and ask why they do not create an automatic inflating mast bouyancy aid. I went to the extent of mounting a Mustang CO2 cartridge on a Holt Bag, but you need better plastic welds for it to hold air under pressure. Should be a Kickstarter idea.

This device is available in England: http://www.tridentuk.com/gb/boats-and-catalogues/wayfarer-parts-catalogue/wayfarer-anti-capsize-cushions-and-mast-floats.html

Posted 7 years ago #
CrazyRussian
Member

Badger. Automatic self-inflating bags have been around for a while. They are not efficient. The goal is to prevent a boat from going turtle. It takes several seconds for the bag to trigger and inflate. By that time most monohulls well pass of point of no return. Most monohulls are going turtle almost instantly. Boat needs to be stopped on its side. I guess, there is no any other way but adding flotation to a mast and sail. Mast may be sealed and double panels with closed cell foam added to a sail. There is always bullet proof solution of adding a mast float, similar to Hobie Bob or ball on Aqua Cat.
MarlinBrando. Wetsuits are OK for a few hours on water. They are not functional for several days spent in rapidly changing environment. I doubt that anyone can live in wetsuit for 7 days.

Posted 7 years ago #
seabag
Member

There is also the issue of the amount and placement of side tanks in the boat. If the boat floats too high on it's side it turtles easier. If it lays lower in the water so that all of the mast/ yard/ gaff provides floation. It is harder to turtle. On Chesapeake Bay log canoes when we capsized them they'd lay nicely on their sides with the enourmous masts floating them. We'd put a few people on the centerboard before removing the mast and sail as that was the only way to right them. We'd also keep old t shirts handy to stuff into the top of the centerboard trunks before starting to bail them. That helped a lot. Dinghy racers are practiced at moving to the board very quickly after a capsize which also helps. With two, one can go to the mast head and provide support while the other gets on the board.

Posted 7 years ago #
Feks
Member

Ther are a few posts saying that dry sutes wher, are caried in dry bags, how do you get into one on the water? And when is the right time put it on ? When your in the water next to your boat is that the time to put it on? Im a kayaker and canoist, i cant see how its going to work having a dry sute stowd away? I also sail blue water, thats diferant , i cary both bibs and a dry sute and deside on which to wher on deck.
In the kayak its one or the other, is ther sumthing im missing?

Posted 7 years ago #
BeastOarman
Member

Feks, I can barely get my drysuit on when I stand on solid ground, I cannot imagine doing it in the water. And a drysuit filled with water likely is no good. Seems it needs to be a premeditated decision - if it looks rough or if it is going to be a cold night, pull off and change. I have wondered if a wet suit or at least top made for a better kayaking rescue solution, better a wet suit that you can don while in the water than a drysuit packed away?

I have always brought a dry suit, but only worn it during practice outings. Never hit water so rough during the EC that I felt any danger of capsizing. When rowing I have swamped a few times, but in that case my trunk is still above water and keeping warm even when wet is never an issue - just keep rowing. Almost impossible to flip, even when both my oars broke off I did not flip. Kayaking I get colder, but again, unless it is rough I do not wear the drysuit. Might consider getting a drytop or something I would wear more.

Posted 7 years ago #
CrazyRussian
Member

There is no "one size fits all" solution across all types of boats we have presented. If conditions are rough sailors will be expoused to lots of wind and spray and very little physical activity. In such conditions one can get cold very fast, even if air temperature is in 70-80-s. On another side paddlers and rowers will work hard and stay wormer.
Wetsuits are good for constant immersion but they just dont work when person exposed to wind and air.
I have both and over years i tried to find optimal combination for all possible scenarios with less stuff dragged around. For my, relatively slow class 5 boats i found that dry suit is indispensible.
For warmer days, normally for Florida Bay Crossings i would just use fleece underwear and bibs and windbreaker. Wet fleece with wind barrier works as well as wet suit and it is a lot more comfortable.
But most of the time i just would wear dry suit and change under layers accordinally. If i have to row, i would unzip the suit and undo the top and let it wrap around waist.
If there is a slightest chance of capsize i would have it done.

I apologize for all misspelling, somehow spellchecker doesnt work on this forum on my phone and i had never had a chance to study english gramma.

Posted 7 years ago #
BubbaKoosh
Member

I sealed every rivet/hole in my mast & shoved a noodle in the top before I sealed it. Before that I bought a Lobster buoy hollowed it out and shoved it on top of the mast. I think I might put the buoy back on for good measure. Not very fancy but works great and cost $8.

With the money I saved I can buy my wife plenty of alcohol to sedate her while I'm on EC 2016!

Posted 7 years ago #
Feks
Member

I love Mr Moons sail top mast flote thing, i imagen it makes handeling a mast easier if your droping it whilst on the water.

Posted 7 years ago #
ZeroTheHero
Member

as to the drysuit question; it's in the rules for open boats. I don't think kayakers have to have one but I think they need a cag instead. Personally I wouldn't go without one.

In 13 GMG and I wore ours almost the whole race. I took mine off south of cp2, GMG kept hers on till past cp3. We really never were in need of them but better to be safe.

In 14 I launched in my drysuit, removed it around 10 a.m. and then put it back on for night sailing. Did the same thing each day. It was a must in the Hare. There was always a little water in the boat and it was windier at night so we made most of our miles in the dark. It was a wet and sleeping in the boat I was often lying in a little water. With out the drysuit I would not have been able to keep going. Even though '14 was a warmer year, I was colder. I packed lighter, and pushed harder.

Capsize floats, we carried one, inflated, at the top of the sail the whole race. Available at Annapolis Preformance Sailing.http://www.apsltd.com/c-4690-mastfloatbuoyancybag.aspx

Our Nomad is prone to turtling due to it's width. Important lesson though. If you reef down the float offers much less help. It would be best to figure out a way to keep it at the top of the mast at all times.

Posted 7 years ago #
Bermudaboy
Member

Drysuits are great when its continually wet, - to a little cold - and up to freezing. Absolutely suck when its none of those, and always can become a body bag (or optimistically preserve you for a little longer till rescue comes) if your craft dumps you & even slowly drifts on, a Drysuit (with a pfd) makes it next to impossible to swim back up to your Sofa.

For those trying to pinch every ounce of gear, 7lbs of heavy drysuit, for an event forecasting warm water/conditions, really rubs on the nerves.. thats almost whole gallon of cool, sweet water...

Earlier in thia thread question about when and why packed in a drybag... Don't know squat about paddling.

For Sailing: Variables, Variables, Variables, Variables, & more Variables = quickly adapting decisions for better solutions; or a crappy sailor. Gotta be updating strategies/tactics/rig before or as new variables arrange into the NEW soon to be OLD condition... This is the hardest part for me cuz really gets difficult concentrating over such long periods of time, and even when concentrating, making the right set of decisions.... or having the strength/self discpline to carry em out.

Posted 7 years ago #
MarlinBrando
Member

My favorite part of sailing is the Variables, Variables, Variables, Variables and more Variables. Watching the wind on the water and the waves.... Makes one feel accomplished. As for weight, I'm not to worried about 7 pounds, the Theresa Rousaeu is a big canoe. Wore worried about reducing the weight I will be stepping into the canoe hehe. The dry suits on mythic that Macatawa posted are within my single item purchase range. Plus I would not mind kayaking or canoeing in the colder seasons, in fact I would rather enjoy it.

Keeping warm by a drysuit is simply an new concept to me. In the past it was an idea of heat by movement and start a fire and drying off. Thanks to all of you I will be adapting quickly...

Posted 7 years ago #
lugnut
Member

Great thread. Thanks PD for sharing your experience, I've learned quite a bit from it. Also, it seems that part of the course around Cape Sable is underappreciated for dealing up some unpleasant weather surprises.

Posted 7 years ago #
seabag
Member

What are people wearing with their drysuits? I've had one for a decade or so, in fact worn one out. If I am paddlng hard no matter what combination of fleece / capilene is under it, the 'wicking' layer wets out and I get cold. Breathability does not seem to do it for me when I am pushing at race pace. Cruising or sailing is fine.

Posted 7 years ago #
ZeroTheHero
Member

Seabag, is yours breathable? Even those aren't prefect but they are so much better than the old ones.

I tend to layer lightly. I figure the drysuit will trap a lot of heat and moisture so I co light. Wool scoks, runners pants, a techwick shirt, maybe a light fleece. Unless it's really cold, then I go for a heavier top. I have found if I take care of my hands and head that helps a ton. A buff, winter hat, patagonia winter sailing gloves help a lot

Posted 7 years ago #
seabag
Member

Yeah, the drysuit is gore tex top of the line. And I do layer lightly. Last week I was running with a 'wicking' t and mysterioso snug top. It was maybe 45 degrees and I could wring out the top at the end of 40 minutes of flat water to class iii racing. So what I want is the best wicking fabric I can find and or some stuff that will be warm when it is wet. The capilene or similar fabrics don't work for me. Funnily enough the old wool army trou worn over some silk weight cap briefs was damp but warm.

Posted 7 years ago #
ZeroTheHero
Member

I'm class 4 so my level of activity is much lower than a paddler

Posted 7 years ago #
MisterMoon
Member

I usually bring a drysuit, but have yet to wear it on a challenge, preferring instead to wear my bib foul weather pants and jacket. Depending upon the weather and time of day, I adjust the layers underneath as necessary. I carry several pairs of polypro long underwear, fleece pants, and fleece jackets and vest of varying weights. I also carry a couple of warm hats: a fleece skull cap and a wool watch cap. I've also got a neoprene wetsuit vest. All my clothing is quick drying and wicking materials, polyester, fleece, nylon, wool and neoprene, no cotton of any kind. For my feet I wear neoprene wetsuit boots most of the time. My boat is generally dry enough to to be quite comfortable with this combination.

The last few challenges I've been on have been quite warm. In 2013 with the constant north winds keeping temperatures low, I probably would have pulled on the drysuit, at least at night. The rule of thumb that has worked for me is this. I take the sum of the air temperature plus the water temperature. If that sum is below 120 F, I will put on the drysuit. If not, I'll wear foulies and fleece.

What to wear is a very personal decision with lots of trade-offs and compromises. My choice of sailiing clothing is based on what I've found works for me over a lot of years. If I were in something really wet and exposed like a Hobie TI or a sit-on-top, I would make different choices than I have for my class 4 sailboat. Hopefully the inspectors will agree that my approach is well thought out and sound.

If we all wanted to be truly impervious to hypothermia, we'd all wear gumby suits like Alaskan crabbers.

Posted 7 years ago #

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