WaterTribe Inspection Cheat Sheets

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WaterTribe Inspection Cheat Sheets

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Started 7 years ago by Chief
Latest reply from ZeroTheHero

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Chief
Coastal Vagabond

I just sent the following email out to the OFC2015 and OFUM2015 challengers. This same thing will be applying to all future WaterTribe events so this is a heads up.

====================================================

OFC2015 and OFUM2015 Inspection Cheat Sheet Number 1

You may have heard that inspections for both WaterTribe vets and newbies are going to get tougher. Here is a homework assignment that could help you pass inspection.

What is the fully loaded carrying capacity of your boat? This includes captain and crew if any.

When all your stuff including food for the duration of the challenge and water for at least 3 days is packed appropriately in waterproof bags, how much does everything weigh?

When you add yourself loaded and ready to go, are you over 80% of your full load? If you are, you won't pass inspection. If you want to carry more than 3 days of water, you can use the last 20% of capacity for that. But you can resupply water pretty easily so why carry the additional load.

One reason we had so many problems in EC2015 were boats loaded too heavy. I have done it myself, but I will never do it again and we will be watching for it.

===========================================================

More will follow.

Posted 7 years ago #
Bermudaboy
Member

Chief: Does this mean past Captains can no longer self inspect and turn in our sheet?

Posted 7 years ago #
Chief
Coastal Vagabond

Sort of. WaterTribe vets will have a faster inspection process. But they will still have to initial and sign the Entrance Requirements and will have to answer some specific questions as part of that process. They won't have to pull everything out of their waterproof bags like newbies will.

Also, WaterTribe vets will probably have fewer questions during the process.

Here's another cheat sheet question: When was the last time your practiced a wet exit and self rescue with a fully loaded boat?

Posted 7 years ago #
Bermudaboy
Member

Chief thanks for quick answer. As for the cheat sheet question, does that have to do with the tribe or something to do with that nocturnal activity my better half is typically not interested in...?

Posted 7 years ago #
Bermudaboy
Member

can i take that back, seeing its our 25th anniversary today, and if she sees this post #$@&%*!

Posted 7 years ago #
MisterMoon
Member

Questions for you to consider WRT Class 4: USCG capacity plates are not required for sailboats (only for outboard and inboard boats under 20 ft). Who determines what the capacity for a particular boat is?

FWIW, I see this as much more critical for the kayaks and maybe for sailboats less than 14' for one person and 15' for two. I have no idea what's prudent for the multihulls, but I'm sure they will have some insight.

My guess is we had less than 580# of people and stuff on my 17'er. Looking at photos from the EC, I see our transom isn't even dragging with this load. Is #580 less than 80% of "rated" capacity? I don't know, but I do from long experience that it's a safe load.

As for wet exits (capsizes), yes, Last year in 45 degree water. Not on purpose, not fun, but was able to recover solo. I do intend to do some more practice this summer when the water gets warm enough.

Posted 7 years ago #
Sirtackalot
Member

So lets do the math. I sail on a Hobie TI. The capacity per the factory is 600 pounds. If it can't be over 80% of the load thats 480 pds allowable. Last race I was at 237 ( no jokes please) with 110 pds of gear. Thats 347. So if I take another person on a boat deisnged for 2, that second person and proper gear has to have a total weight of less than 133 pounds? Or normal size men at 200 pounds each can only have gear including dry suits, life jackets, coats , sweaters and boots, peddles, anchor, tent, food, water, batterys stove, etc and all that at less than 80 pounds? I must not be understanding this.

Posted 7 years ago #
Mishigama
Member

Are we supposed to cheat on the sheet. It looks to me like Sea Pearl sailors will not be able to answer the question "When was the last time your practiced a wet exit and self rescue with a fully loaded boat?

Posted 7 years ago #
TangledUpInBlue
Member

There's no question in my mind my AI was over the sticker weight. However, I was and am of the opinion that probably made it a safer boat than lighly loaded, albeit slower boat, and probably more safe than what I might do on some future camping trip, solo a TI with less than the rated load. But even if true on the AI, I see where that may not be true on all boats.

Posted 7 years ago #
MisterMoon
Member

Mishigama: I practice a wet exit just about every time I go sailing on warm days. I jump off the foredeck, take a nice refreshing swim, and climb back in on the boarding ladder!

This is meant to be a little facetious, but getting back on board a class 4 is no joke. I used to have a rope ladder that would work to get me back aboard, but it was more difficult than it needed to be. A permanently fixed metal boarding ladder now graces my boat's transom.

Posted 7 years ago #
Mishigama
Member

I thought a "wet exit" required a broach with a swamped boat.

Posted 7 years ago #
Chekika
Member

TangledUpInBlue wrote:

There's no question in my mind my AI was over the sticker weight. However, I was and am of the opinion that probably made it a safer boat than lighly loaded, albeit slower boat, and probably more safe than what I might do on some future camping trip, solo a TI with less than the rated load. But even if true on the AI, I see where that may not be true on all boats.

I'm not sure of the logic here. Hobie has recently said that "capacity" of their Islands is a bit of an estimate. Still, I know from personal experience that when an AI is loaded to sticker capacity, it rides very low in the water. I also know, when I flooded my AI hull, that it was very easy to capsize. So, I'm curious why you think your fully loaded (over the sticker capacity) makes the boat "more safe."

Keith

Posted 7 years ago #
MisterMoon
Member

Chekika, there's a big difference between a hull flooded with a few hundred lbs of sloshing water than one loaded with a few hundred pounds of gear that is more or less fixed in place. This is due to a phenomenon called the free surface effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_surface_effect.

Flooding is way worse than overloading becuase of the disastrous effect of free surface water has on stability.

There was at least one class 4 boat I've seen in last couple of challenges that really gave me because they were largely open with no decking and no decked over areas to reduced the amount of free surface water that would collect in a swamping. They would be very difficult to reboard and bail out after a capsize. There was at least one boat that I'm pretty sure no one would have been able to recover from a swamping as it did not appear to have enough flotation to keep the open CB slot above the surface. (I have some experience with this from a long time ago with a boat of mine. I had a terrible time getting going again after a capsize in flat water with such a boat. Had there been any chop at all, I could have only hoped for rescue or being blown to shore.)

Mishigama, "wet exit" is really a kayak term, meaning exiting your inverted boat after a capsize. When I was an ACA certified whitewater kayak instructor many years ago, the first in-water session was alway wet exits.

Question, do most Sea Pearl guys have stirrups and righting lines rigged in case of capsize. I have to think with some preparation and practice it's possible.

Posted 7 years ago #
Chekika
Member

I understand that MM. My point is that with a heavily loaded AI, one that is floating very low in the water, you may add to your problems with water leaking into your hull. That, as you point out, is going to destabilize your boat. In fact, when I flooded my hull, it was packed for a camping trip. It was full of dry bags, but was still one gust of wind away from capsize. Also, my situation was not water sloshing around in a boat such as a kayak or canoe. My AI hull was flooded (full) in addition to the drybags. I don't think there was a lot of sloshing going on. About the only thing keeping it from sinking was (1) the dry bags, and (2) the amas.

But, even if not flooded, I'm wondering about the logic of an overloaded AI being safer than a lightly loaded one.

Keith

Posted 7 years ago #
TangledUpInBlue
Member

I'm not sure of the logic here. Hobie has recently said that "capacity" of their Islands is a bit of an estimate. Still, I know from personal experience that when an AI is loaded to sticker capacity, it rides very low in the water. I also know, when I flooded my AI hull, that it was very easy to capsize. So, I'm curious why you think your fully loaded (over the sticker capacity) makes the boat "more safe."

Keith

Not a navel architect and I haven't done any comparative capsizing so I could be all wet...but my guess to why my gut feels like the boat is safer, lower to the water means having the upwind ama in the water or closer to the water leading to less rolling and pitching and involved more actively in stabilizing the boat. That with more mass at the low end of the moment seems to make the boat less susceptable to gusts. It's a slow swimming pig though. I'm looking for a TI and thinking about building something like a Strike 18 or another tri of some sort, not necessarily for the EC, for general kicks.

Posted 7 years ago #
Chekika
Member

When my AI hull was flooded the center cockpit hatch cover was 1" underwater. So, I was very low in the water. And, I don't understand the dynamics of the situation. The winds were probably 12 kts, gusting to 15. Rather amazingly, I did not realize I was flooded (I was herding a group of beginners--so, I was watching them, rather than paying attention to my own boat), until that 15 kt gust came along, and I almost capsized. That got my attention.

Since Hobie Islands can take water on through several openings, I would prefer to be high in the water, rather than low. Just my preference.

Keith

Posted 7 years ago #
Ridgerunner
Member

Some of you have confused "capsize " with "wet exit". The new document says that you have practiced capsize. The Sea Pearl is a great boat. I have finished an EC in one. BUT, it will fill up when capsized and is very difficult to recover.

Posted 7 years ago #
TideTraveller
Member

I am also interested in who gets to decide on the capacity of a boat that doesn't have one. Will there be a scale at the inspection? People tend to underestimate their weight:).

Posted 7 years ago #
JammerJim
Member

I sailed my QCC 700 for the first time sense the EC last week. (I have paddled several time with no sail) I got the sail during the derby last year. I never sail with an empty boat. I was learning to sail, training for the EC and getting derby points. With the boat empty, and the sail up on windy day, the boat was very twitchie compared to laoded. I felt very safe going across tampa bay with a loaded boat and the sail up. I am sure I was below 80%. I will run next year EC lighter.

Posted 7 years ago #
JoeVanGeaux
Member

I knew there was one out there and below is a useful (better than nothing) rule for calcualting capacity of a boat without a plate:

On boats less than 20 feet in length with no capacity plate, use the following rule of thumb to calculate the number of persons (weighing 150 lbs. each, on average) the vessel can carry safely in good weather conditions.

Number of people = vessel length (ft.) x vessel width (ft.) ÷ 15

For example, for a vessel 18 feet long by 6 feet wide, the number of persons is 18 times 6 (or 108) divided by 15, which equals seven 150-lb. persons (or a total person weight of 7 x 150, or 1050 lbs.).

*****

The above was, as I said, a cut-and-paste and in no way am I suggesting that the average Triber is 150#!!

Posted 7 years ago #
Danito
Member

I better get on a diet then

Posted 7 years ago #
Chief
Coastal Vagabond
Lots of questions but I will try and answer.

The load capacity of a kayak, canoe or sailboat is a critical design parameter and the manufacturer of your boat should be able to provide the answer. Here are some examples:
- Hobie AI 2015 - 400 lb. - 80% of that is 320 lb. Since I weigh 200 I can carry 120 lb of gear, food, and water. That is a lot of stuff and I am aiming to lose another 20 lb so it gets even better. If I lose the weight and think like a backpacker my load would only be 240 lb or 60%. Lighter means faster.
- Hobie TI 2015 - 600 lb. - 80% of that is 480 lb. Let's say two people have a combined weight of 350 lb. They can carry 130 lb of gear, food and water. If they need more than that, they have two choices: get a bigger boat or go on a diet.
- A Night Heron Can Carry 300 lb - 80% of that is 240 lb. If I lose my extra 20 pounds, I can carry 60 lb. of gear, food, and water. Backpackers do that all the time so think like a backpacker.
- A Core Sound 17 Mk3 Can Carry 850 lb, but that includes the water ballast. Since I am supposed to be an expert in my boat, I better find out how much of that is water ballast. However, rest assured I will be able to carry what I need.
- Your Boat - This is a homework assignment.
A wet exit is typically referring to an upside down kayak. But it can apply to any boat if you capsize or fall out. The point is, how are you going to get back in your boat and recover so you can continue without calling the Coast Guard? You need a plan and you need practice.

I love the Sea Pearl and had one for a few years. But it has been pointed out that they can be a problem if they capsize. OK, you're the expert. What have you done to mitigate the problem? This same issue applies to many open boats and day sailors. It also applies to most beach cats and other multihulls.

I can recover from a capsize in my AI. Can you recover from a capsize in your boat? If the answer is no, you should not enter these events.
Posted 7 years ago #
JoeWildlife
Member

Danito, the capacity of a Sea Wind is 500 pounds, just so you don't have to look it up. You'll be fine. I look forward to warmer weather and getting mine out and loaded and trying it out. I'm adding flotation and a stirrup and have a paddle float... I'm pretty sure I could have recovered in 2013 should I have capsized. I'll be sure I can before 2016 :)

I think this is a positive discussion and it is clearly bringing about increased preparation and abilities in future participants. I wasn't even there in 2015 but I'm taking lessons learned to heart. Chief I'm glad you mentioned the Sea Pearl...I'm not a sailor and know little about sailboats but agree that nobody should get a pass, no matter how stable and seaworthy their boat is in the first place. Even us Kruger paddlers :)

Joe

Posted 7 years ago #
TangledUpInBlue
Member

The pre-2015 Hobie AI is 350 pounds. (80% is 280.)

My Soltice Titan kayak is 475. I could make weight in the Titan but not in the AI. Something seems amiss. I'm not an endurance paddler though so, I need a new boat!

Posted 7 years ago #
Bermudaboy
Member

Ok taking it easy again today, ( I do have a job) but only for another half hour, supposed to have nice 15mph wind startin round noon, Yeehaw! So at least no more nauseating posts from me today...

Understand in the "frosty wake" of what happened this year the urge to set criteria, formulas and definitions, and good as general reference, but really nonsensical and unimplementable in real SAFETY terms on an individual triber/vessel basis.

(Cancellations, responsibility, refunds, credits, etc are a whole nother can of worms that I avoid on whimpy purposes of not having skin in this last one)

Like I said before, I think none of the rules should be changed, except doing all the legal race contacts stuff as required by CG, and make sure the original inspection check list is obeyed, either individually or by RM.

We are captain of our vessel, we are not captain of looking out across our WT forum keyboards, or across the starting beach and judging others. This is 'Merica! ( I say that as a pale-face sailin-dude who ass (sic) lived in conformist Japan for a long time,.. gotta good regatta story bout that which wil save for beside a fire on Middle Cape, may wanna keep on sailing down to East if the fire looks oxygen starved)

I'd say each triber has got to be humble, and continually practice in all sorts of conditions as much as they can, and know the upper limit of themselves and vessel, when to stop, seek refuge, or hold out on the water. Even with that, there is always going to be conditions that you are still going to get your butt kicked in. Thats it, no more rules or criteria needed from above. We all got to keep practicing and gaining experience. For when the proverbial does hit the fan, its sure better if we're in the best individual physical shape we can each be in.

Like many, I've been sailing since 7, like most starting racing Optimist prams, and up the typical progression from there... Really fallen in love with WT events, ironically, alot of the times out in practice and at the two events I've done so far, I hated it. True Love.

Posted 7 years ago #
MisterMoon
Member

The issue I think is that max 'safe' capacities for non-motorized vessels is somewhat arbitrary depending upon how sophisticated is the person making the determination. Then you get into the issue of homebuilts.

For a class 4 boat, I'm pretty sure I could take a look at a floating loaded vessel and be able to determine whether or not it's overloaded. For my own boat, I feel very confident as an expert I know what constitutes a safe crusing load.

Posted 7 years ago #
Chief
Coastal Vagabond

OK, we've sort of beat that one to death. We want a reasonable cruising load that does not go beyond the design limits of the boat and provides a bit of a cushion. Which brings up the next cheat sheet.

==============================================================

OFC2015 and OFUM2015 Inspection Cheat Sheet Number 2

OK, you've figured out how much stuff you can bring in your chosen boat.

How are you going to pack your boat?

This is another problem that has gotten some people in trouble in past events and you hear about it all the time. Improper packing can lead to lots of trouble.

Again, I will use a kayak as an example but similar methods apply to any boat. First, you need at least two bulkheads. Some kayaks have a day hatch so they have 3 bulkheads. Ooops, your open day sailor doesn't have bulkheads??? I'm sure you can figure something out.

1. You want to divide the weight so you end up with a balanced load.
2. You want to have virtually everything in waterproof bags that are not worn out.
3. You want to leave the last 2 feet or so of the bow and stern virtually weight free. But you also want to put something there so your gear cannot shift around. They make bow and stern air bags that will do this, but you can also put a loosely rolled sleeping pad in a waterproof bag and accomplish the same thing.

Of course as an expert, you can come up with your own packing scheme. I will want to see that the boat is balanced, the gear provides floatation if the compartments are compromised. And your gear can't shift around.

Posted 7 years ago #
TideTraveller
Member

Chief,

You say that "you will need at least two bulkheads". That would eliminate stock Hobie AI's, Kruger Canoes, and many more boats. Have I misunderstood your cheat sheet? Or will things like float bags still be able to take place of bulkheads?

TideTraveller

Posted 7 years ago #
Bermudaboy
Member

Supposed to be 13mph today max , last two hours was 30knts, maybe some gusts above, and a seriously dense wind with no holes or soft spots, surface all white froth. Humbled... Kept thinking what if I got caught a few miles offshore in this, with a wind suddenly shifting to out of the east in the GOM. Hmmm?

Posted 7 years ago #
Danito
Member

Thanks for being on my side Joe....Hey honey my buddy Joe said I dont need to loose weight so the diet is off! Lol.

In all seriousness . When I paddle/train for a challenge or paddle in the derby I keep a small level in the kruger. With a full expedition load and myself in the canoe I try to keep my canoe as close to level as possible. This has helped me in how and where I stow my gear on my sea wind.

I have capsized my sea wind. As long as my gear is clipped and tied securely I can get back in and pump it out and bail. I do carry extra flotation. I do have a strirup.

Need to improve on my food and water requirements (food and water weight)

Posted 7 years ago #