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Skills Assessment

(48 posts) (26 voices)

Started 5 years ago by Chief
Latest reply from Swoody126

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Chief
Coastal Vagabond

Starting with BBC2015 and NCC2015 there will be a mandatory skills assessment day prior to the inspection day for all newbies. Your gear and boat will be inspected and you will have to perform self rescues and assissted rescues. All boats in all classes will have to capsize and recover.

All event forms must be submitted before the skills assessment starts.

If you have previously finished a WaterTribe Challenge within the last three years, you will be excused from the skills assessment.

If you have passed a WaterTribe Survival course within the last year, you will be excused from the skills assessment.

If you are sponsored by a WaterTribe Elder and that Elder certifies your skills, you will be excused from the skills assessment. Consider this a mentoring program. I must approve who the Elder is that is doing the mentoring.

No matter if you are excused from or take part in the skills assessment, you are still subject to the regular inspection day

Posted 5 years ago #
MarlinBrando
Member

Anythere day in Florida?? Not a problem :)

Posted 5 years ago #
JoeVanGeaux
Member

Chief, bearing in mind I will comply with whatever criteria that is established to assess skills... especially for challenge noobs like myself... since the need for these skills goes well beyond WT events.

But, will there be any place for video logs showing a variety of recovery exercises to demonstrate all, most or some of the required skills? For my Class 4 "heavy" boat there is the real chance for inadvertent equipment breakage during the course of performing some exercises that is not necessarily associated with any skills assessment - for the purpose of an invite to particpate, that is.

I am a firm believer in preparedness (and this is why I felt I had to withdraw from the 2015 EC in the first place) but "stuff" can happen during trials that may force withdrawal due to time needed for repairs. I have access to a nearby deep lake within screaming distance of a CG outpost where I will likely be able to practice recovery from a full turtle... but I'm not convinced the waters just off of DeSoto are deep enough to avoid unecessary damage.

Another point, here, is that if this adds another day prior to the start, it will be something else for me and every new event entrant will need to consider and plan for.

Final note: There is nothing to be taken is this post as being contentious or adversarial .. just asking so I can plan properly.

Posted 5 years ago #
SeaDawg
Member

Only a Challenge completion excludes you from this requirement? As Joe mentioned it'll factor in an extra day for the NCC100 - travel, accomodations and the like.

See you on the water,

SeaDawg

Posted 5 years ago #
MisterMoon
Member

Chief, this should probably be a sticky. I'm not going to argue whether or not this new rule, because it really doesn't matter. I could argue it either way. Also, if you say we gotta, we gotta!

I would like to make some suggestions as they apply to Class 4 (and Class 5, I think) based on my perceptions of your intent with this skills assessment. I've only got direct experience with Class 4, therefore my comments are specifically limited to those craft.

In a hard chance in a monohull sailboat, the safest place to be is in the boat. Among the worst things that can happen are capsizes, swampings, and an inability to reboard after an MOB or some combination of all these things. If the worst happens and the crew are able to right the boat, reboard and dewater, then their risk of disastrous consequences goes down by a huge extent. The number one thing we are trying to avoid is people in the water. It's possible the consequences of the capsize or swamping is the rig of the boat is somehow damaged, but as long as the crew can get in the boat and get the water out of it, they are at low risk of anything worse happening to them other than some discomfort and incovenience. Even if the sailing rig is damaged or lost they have time to consider all the options which could include things like sailing with a jury rig to safety, ditching the rig altogether and rowing or paddling to safety, contacting a commercial towing service (for which they have insurance) to aid in their recovery, anchor and wait for a good Samaritan, and make a Securite' call on the VHF asking for a good Sam,,,well, you get the picture. There are many options as long as you are back in in dry boat. This is contrasted with swimmers in the water, a much more dangerous and immediately life threatening situation and who need to be rescued with all due haste lest they be overcome by hypothermia and/or exhaustion. Swimmers are also a lot harder to find than a boat. For these reasons, I believe the intent of this skills assessment is to first and foremost verify people can get back in their boats and get them dewatered.

I'm with JVG that for class 4 at least there needs to be a way to demonstrate this other than the day before an event. There's always going to be some risk of damage to our boats in knocking them down. It would be a shame to have someone successfully demonstrate their ability to right their stricken craft, reboard it wearing all their safety gear, and successfully bail it out only to damage their rig such that they are not able to participate.

Even though, as understand things right now, I would not be required to do this myself, all this discussion has prompted me to do some more capsize drills this summer after the water warms up a bit. Hopefully anyone who would be required to do this could submit video evidience of their successful recovery or have it vouched for a by a WT elder in order to meet this requirement. If I bend or break my rig in July, it's not as big a deal as if I bent or broke it two days before the start of a WT event.

Posted 5 years ago #
BlueJay
Member

Seems like this will also act as a filter for the boats. I dont think i could recover my SeaPearl Tri from a capsize.

Posted 5 years ago #
MisterMoon
Member

I don't think you could demonstrate a capsize on some boat types, particularly the larger trimarans. I do think you need to be able to demonstrate the ability to reboard unassisted following an MOB. It would be shame to exempt the Sea Pearl tris as they are arguably safer than the monohull versions because they are so much more difficult to capsize. I was also thinking about the ASTUS 20 tri that came this year, another boat that would be extraordinarily difficult to capsize. And if you do manage to do a test capsize (and it would take a lot to accomplish this), breakage would certainly be the result. Another boat I'm thinking of that would difficult to test in this manner is the old Tridarka Raider.

It would be worthwhile to get the input from somebody like SwampMonkee or SewSew who between them have thousands and thousands of miles of experience with high performance multihulls, including recovering from mishaps, to weigh in on how best to assess what are the necessary skills to recover multihulls.

Posted 5 years ago #
PainenDias
Blocked

Just don't ask DonKeyHoTey to assess my skills! At least not for 6 to 8 months. I'd like to give him a chance to calm down and let time heal all the wounds!

Posted 5 years ago #
Chief
Coastal Vagabond

First, I will be adding complete information about the skill tests to the web site in the Events section over the next several days and even weeks. As you can imagine this is not something that can be thrown together in a few hours. The OkoumeFest events will be the first to have this feature and those folks will have some fun helping me sort things out. So watch for things to firm up after the OFC2015 and OFUM2015. Then we will fine tune it at the BBC2015 and NCC2015. By March we should be good to go on the final form of these tests.

A single or even multiple previous finishes does not clear you from these skill requirements. If you are trying a new class, your skills in that new boat will have to be tested. Remember too that one way to satisfy these requirements is to be sponsored by an Elder in the class you are going to enter. In my opinion, this is the best way for newbies to enter a WaterTribe event.

If you don't know an Elder or you don't have one close to you, we will be offering classes like the WaterTribe Survival class in September. These are optional but will certify your skills and allow practice in a controlled environment.

If none of that works, get the training and skills anywhere you want and then prove those skills at the event. There is no additional cost for the Skills Assessment that is tied to a WaterTribe event, and if you have the skills, it won't be that hard.

Some Class 4 and Class 5 boats present some difficulties for testing these required skills. It would be difficult if not impossible to safely turtle an i550 or Sea Pearl or an O'Day Mariner without damage to the boat. But I don't plan to turtle these boats as part of the test. Instead I used the term "knockdown." By that I mean your mast goes almost 90 degrees, captain and crew if any get thrown out of the boat, and you have to recover.

In some cases even that test might be too much. I will be talking to some of the Elders who have these sorts of boats and see what options we have.

For some boats I may require that they have towing insurance that is tied to their SPOT help button. This would have prevented at least two calls to the CG in our recent adventures. Again, I will be consulting some Elders on this. BTW, I will be buying that insurance myself because it makes sense to have it.

Posted 5 years ago #
MisterMoon
Member

This is an imminently reasonable approach. Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Chief.

Posted 5 years ago #
OneEyedJake
Member

I like the mentoring idea. Mentors should feel a sense of responsibility for those mentored. It shifts the responsibility for qualifying potential tribers to the tribe in general. No ACA/BCU training could be a substitute for the accumulated experience and knowledge of our Elders. Disseminating that wealth of experience is the responsibility of the tribe in general and the Elders in particular and leads to the continuity of the Watertribe.

jmho

oej

Posted 5 years ago #
Lawless
Member

While there may be "no new rules", my red flag about trying to "idiot-proof" the EC is once again flying high. Like Mister Moon, my prior finish would apparently exempt me from this new "skills assessment" but any poor newbies who are just getting into the game are really going to made to pay for the sins of the past.

A mandatory capsize and recover requirement will probably eliminate a good many class 4 boats or at least pose significant discouragement for their owners to even bother to enter. While I am fairly confident that I can capsize and recover just about any small sailboat that I might choose to sail, I spent the past 40 year or so learning to AVOID capsizes. The fact that I CAN capsize and recover a boat doesn't mean that I ever WANT to do it. It seems that we may have to say "Goodbye" to the Sea Pearls and Daysailors, etc. Great boats when sailed prudently by able hands but who in their right mind would want to dump one and recover it unless absolutely necessary? About the only class 4 boat that I ever really enjoyed dumping and righting was the little Sunfish that I had when I was about 14 years old. It's good to know that we will have a filter that favors the expeditionary capabilities of a Sunfish!

As long as we're stiffening up requirements, I recall that some hulls have been holed due to groundings/collisions in past challenges requiring rescues/assistance. It seems prudent that future assessments include a requirement that all hulls be punctured with a poleaxe and potential competitors then required to demonstrate fothering, de-watering and emergency hole repair as well. Sure, it'll add a bit of unnecessary wear & tear but it's a small price to pay to make the EC absolutely 100% idiot-proof! (And all that fiberglass repair will create the perfect opportunity to pull in additional event sponsorships from West Systems or Raka!)

Yep. Before you know it, our requirements, assessments and filter should be so strict that no idiot could possibly slip through (or even dare to make the attempt!). But I have to wonder... what will those idiots think of next?

Pondering the possibilities,

Lawless

Posted 5 years ago #
MisterMoon
Member

Lawless, you know I love you man! So I hope you will take my criticism of your post above as from a loving brother. (How's that for passive-agressive? )

Did you read Chief's response above? It sounds like this is a work in progress. Give it a chance to evolve before you go ballistic. We've raised some issues that need to be addressed with this rule/guideline/procedure, whatever you want to call it, for class 4 and 5 and there appears to be a willingness to work with experienced people from those classes to sort out some kind of best practices. Since WT has arguably been the most significant laboratory for the practice and development of small boat skills in the past decade, I say let's give this time of focusing on recovery skills a chance.

The good news is the events of March 7 has got everyone re-evaluating their own contingency plans. Therefore I beleive even if WT didn't do anything officially, it is motivating everyone to show up at future events much better prepared and having given a lot more thought about what they would do in a recovery situation.

Posted 5 years ago #
KNOTaDOC
Member

@ lawless I am a new tribe member, and EC16 will be my first event, and will be sailing in a seapearl 21. That being said, while I am not looking forward to extra "things" to do to enter I am certianly not discouraged by them, I have capsized my pearl and have been thrown out of it more times than I can remember messing around as a kid on it, I've righted it on my own in 3 ft seas(although not fully loaded). It can be done, but I agree, I now practice the time honored tradition of staying IN my boat and sailing in such a way as to keep it upright. I will honor whatever chief says I have to do to get a spot on that beach and I will sail to Key Largo (maybe I'll get best in class being the only in class).

If Chief truly wants the EC idiot-proof(which I haven't heard him say himself) then it's going to be a very empty and lonely beach next March, we are all idiots at some point in our lives, the idea is to minimize those opportunities to be an idiot, and prepare ahead of time to make sure when we do become idiots that there isn't perminant damage.

Posted 5 years ago #
Lawless
Member

No worries MisterMoon. I believe that another Watertribe requirement ought to be to test everyone for a sense of humor and ability to accept criticism without shattering into a million pieces. I did see Chief's response and appreciated the acknowledgement that we are not living in a "one rule, fits all" universe. My prior post was actually sent about the same time as Chief's response but for some reason mine took several hours to post, making me appear a much more "ballistic" than was my good-natured intent. ;-)

My concern about "idiot-proofing" still exists however. I am 100% in favor all Watertribe event entrants being highly prepared, well equipped and ready for everything. However, I don't necessarily think it is in the best interests of the group to get into the game of assessing/questioning every little aspect of a person's knowledge, skills and ability in order to participate. No matter how extreme the assessment becomes, it simply cannot be make "idiot-proof". The goal should be to make participants more responsible for themselves. However, the more involved Watertribe becomes in dictating every aspect of a participant's preparation, the more responsible Watertribe becomes for that person rather than the other way around.

It should be enough to say: 1. Do you have the required gear? 2. Have you read and signed the waiver? Done and done. Your word is your bond. Self-reliance and personal responsibility are two of the core values of the Watertribe. I would hate for the group to lose sight of those principles simply because a select few failed to accurately self-assess their own abilities or worse yet, because somebody didn't want to get sued.

So enough of this jibber-jabber. I have EC training to do. Now where, oh where did I put my poleaxe?

Lawless

Posted 5 years ago #
PainenDias
Blocked

I'd be willing to act as poster-child for all the "improved idiots" and I have an extensive resume to back up my claim to the title! Maybe we could even establish a new class designation so you could keep track of all of us in one grouping with Spot? That would go a long way toward relieving race management of criticism that they did not do enough to "protect" racers considering the exorbitant entry fees! I do recall vaguely that when I popped for the enty fee it was clearly stated in all three Challenges I have completed that:

Let me try to explain this one more time. By entering any WaterTribe Challenge or event, you are agreeing that all the people, companies, and agents associated with the event owe you nothing nor do we owe you duty of care or service or any other duty. We promise you nothing. We do not and will not even try to make this event safe for anyone. This event is not safe for anyone. This is no joke. We won't even try to warn you about every known danger or hazardous condition, whether we know about it or not. If we do decide to warn you about something, that doesn't mean we will try to warn you about everything. If we do make an effort to make some aspects of the event safer, we may not correct other aspects, and we may even make matters worse! We and our agents may do things that are unwise and dangerous. Sorry, we're not responsible. We may give you bad advice. Don't listen to us. In short, ENTER AND PARTICIPATE IN THESE EVENTS AT YOUR OWN RISK. And have fun!

For me, the Everglades Challenge is a premier event! Every Challenge has been! I am gonna die enjoying the fond memories generated by my participation in WaterTribe events, unless Alzheimer's gets me first. My expectation in every event is the same! Finish! But it hasn't been pretty, and it has never been safe!

With all the descriptive terms being batted about considering the truncated 2015 event you would think we stepped back from the brink of a disastrous cataclysmic event that clearly could have wiped out much of the Tribe if it had not been halted by Governmental Agencies. Thank you very much! The verbiage, hard feelings, criticism, and blame-slinging were all very amusing Now some time has passed and the flood of ideas, suggestions, recommendations, and rules-changing have us all in an uproar! Great! I love it. The more you post, the more I learn about various situations sailors and paddlers faced and the better I will be able to overcome my own shortcomings should I be faced with similar circumstances. A win-win situation for me.

On top of all this free advice I also will have the opportunity to attend remedial classes that will flense bad sailing habits from my sailing repertoire. And I can pay for them, too! Great! Summer camp for itinerant, retarded catamaran skippers! My cup runneth over!

Lest anyone mistake the tone of my post I just wanna say the 2015 Everglades Challenge (all two hours of it) will be renowned in Tribal history. Enjoy it, for it is unique! This smorgasbord of maritime mayhem does not promise anyone anything. Indeed, it pretty much promises you nothing, and that is exactly what you got unless you hied off to Key Largo for the post-event feast! Oh, I got a paddle and a t-shirt (that I am giving to the kid who spotted my yellow Watershed drybag 60 miles out into the Gulf of Mexico, and returned it! Nice people!) and food poisoning! And it was all worth it!

There are so many ways for me to piss away my Social Security check! But this one is my favorite! I can sit on my bank account and be thrifty or I can get out there and enjoy the little time I have left on the water with my friends and acquaintances in the WaterTribe. You makes your choice and you pays your money. You also get the opportunity to sit around and criticize and make suggestions. You may even see me at one of the skills-assessment courses. It is all good! Be sure to maintain a healthy sense of humor and I will see you on the beach!

Posted 5 years ago #
Karank
Member

The boat I built and sailed this year could be cut in half and or holed in ever compartment or both and still could be sailed or certainly paddled. I started boating on my own without supervision (free range, just be back before dark) in 1952 (age 12) and have run or sailed boats made from roofing iron (in a ditch) to 45' shrimp boats (in the Gulf). I sailed alone to and around the Bahamas in 1970 from Texas. My teacher (father) was the youngest Captain licensed in The 8th Coast Guard District for some (don't remember) hundred tons. With that back ground and experience and boat, I let my boat sail off in the dark towards Cuba when I landed at stump pass. Go figure? NOW, write a rule to prevent that!

Posted 5 years ago #
Bermudaboy
Member

How bout: "Thou shall not let watertribe crafts be used for dry-foot Cuban purposes"

Posted 5 years ago #
Iszatarock
Member

Karank, I never did ask you how you got separated from your boat. Now I know! How easy it is to underestimate the waves and current that beg to help your boat escape to freedom. We should note here that Karank was not in a life-threatening situation. Nor did he require non-Watertribe help.

I agree with Mister Moon's request that this thread (or some thread very much like this) be posted as a sticky or in some way that keeps it at the top of Watertribe thinking. At least for a while.

I, personally do NOT want to be there when the first Watertriber drowns. Especially if that person falls victim, not to the unexpected or extreme problem, but to lack of what most of us would consider basic skills. I don't care that we all sign the "You might DIE" law suit release.

We had multiple rescues in EC2015. Way more than normal. Why? Apparently because we had a bunch of folks who were not even close to being ready. Thank God they got into trouble before leaving civilization.

That isn't to say that I agree 100% with Chief's thoughts about a qualifying trial the day before the race. But I sure appreciate that he is considering it. And it is worth thinking about. For those of us who think there might be a better way, propose it. But, please, propose ideas in a positive way. Save your jokes and negative jabs for a different thread.

Equipment inspections could help. But my take is that equipment will not take care of the unprepared. Let's help figure out how we can improve Watertribe events by discouraging the unprepared without unduly burdening the prepared.

Iszatarock

Posted 5 years ago #
Iszatarock
Member

Chief, Now that I've been able to release my frustration with my prior post, I would like to weigh in on your proposal.

I strongly support some way to better insure that entrants understand and demonstrate a "reasonable" competence level. "Day before" inspections and demonstrations may have some serious shortcomings that you should consider. It seems like your admitted "excessive flexibility" in allowing violations of equipment rules is driven, in part at least, by your reluctance to shut somebody down after they've paid their entry fee and gone through all the trouble required to show up on the beach. That's good, compassionate behavior. But it's also risky. Let's use that filter as a last resort.

Better, is to encourage qualifying BEFORE making the trip to Fort Desoto. A one-page summary of experience with a video showing self rescue and/or reefing capability is pretty easily produced these days. Perhaps followed by a phone interview if questions remain. Bullshit shows up for what it is pretty easily in conversation. Convene some elders to help you - especially for sailboat experience.

Also consider that we have very experienced people heading out in boats in which they have little or no recent practice. I'm guilty of that, myself. Still, consider ways to encourage our experienced folks to be sure to get some experience with their craft before the start.

Posted 5 years ago #
NautiCal
Member

I like the previous "No new rules" post.

Most of my appeal to this event was a "Darwinian" vs "sky is falling" legal approach.

I believe this has been over thought until there is no reason to race again or even get out of bed if we continue to rationalize the dangers.

My impresion of the tribe was that we are on our own and we were warned of all the possibilities. Now we are driven by monday morning quaterbacks.

Posted 5 years ago #
CaptKirk
Member

Where will the Watertribe Survival Course be held, and will I have to capsize my boat there. I have to agree with those who are hesitant to sink just before an event. Things break. Besides the idea is not to capsize. All boats are not designed to be recoverable. Shackleton didn't capsize, that's what made him special. So where and when is this course.

Posted 5 years ago #
Karank
Member

Please note that I have not proposed or suggested any addition or change of any Watertribe rules for a challenge... until now. I think Watertribe rules are very well done.

The only additional thing I would require would be a separate statement signed by the Capitan before a witness: to wit: "I have capsized and subsequently righted this boat unassisted in water more than 7' deep and unassisted made it seaworthy within 30 minutes within the last 10 months. (I hate cold water and only get into it when absolutely necessary protected or not.)

It is too burdensome and unnecessary to do this immediately before the event. If someone is going to lie about this, I would think that a signed and witnessed statement would protect Watertribe as much as possible. I do this exercise with any new boat... "even my one sheet before I consider it done" a rule that each new boat is subjected to this exercise when it is finished but what I am suggesting is a refresher course once a year…

This is conceptual and would be written by a competent (seaworthy!) lawyer. I see many holes in it now and have not considered anything but class 4.

Posted 5 years ago #
Ekim
Member

How many Trimarans (Class 5) have capsized over the years? I know that this year it was fun weather for the Tri's and a Windrider 16 even made a rescue.

Posted 5 years ago #
Macatawa
Member

Ouragan wrote:

How many Trimarans (Class 5) have capsized over the years? I know that this year it was fun weather for the Tri's and a Windrider 16 even made a rescue.

A Weta tri capsized during a frontal passage in 2011. The mast got stuck in the bottom and broke.

Posted 5 years ago #
Bermudaboy
Member

Everybody gotta die some time, Red. Sgt Barnes.

You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never to get involved in a land war in Asia, and the only slight less well know is this, never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line. Vizzini.

Sure, Beav. You know how it is. They don't like blood, or dirt, or any of those neat things. Wally Cleaver.

Posted 5 years ago #
Iszatarock
Member

I like Karank's suggestion. Not terribly burdensome. Better encouragement for the unprepared to get prepared and enter next year. Maybe consider two tweaks:

1) Add the words "fully loaded with all the gear required for the EC"

2) For boats where righting and making seaworth after capsize is not possible without outside assistance (Tridarka Raider, for example), the skipper should have some means to protect himself/herself and crew from hypothermia, call for help, and stay safe until help arrives. Maybe add that he/she should also carry contact information for BoatUS so we don't need to ask the CG for that information.

Still one problem. What about waves? Self-rescue in flat water is one thing. Waves make it a whole different ballgame.

Posted by a self-admitted elitist, monday morning quarterback, and reciprient of a significant injury from rescuing a kayaker who couldn't self-rescue, IsZataRock.

Posted 5 years ago #
Abaloney
Member

Skills Assessment Video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH6SMocBwN0 Do you have these skills? Thanks to microTom for the link from a previous post. dd

Posted 5 years ago #
Abaloney
Member

Abaloney wrote:

Skills Assessment Video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH6SMocBwN0 Do you have these skills? Thanks to microTom for the link from a previous post.

Posted 5 years ago #
PainenDias
Blocked

Through much experience over the decades I have found that my boats are inevitably most stable in a vertical position. With the mast pointing straight down! You want credentials? I get a Social Security check every month, and I am still here! I have never deliberately capsized any boat. I have deliberately uncapsized quite a few. I sure do like that idea of having a towing service tied in with my Spot help button since my sailing adventures with the WaterTribe might possibly land me in the water again!

Posted 5 years ago #

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