Require a shakedown paddle/sail?

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Require a shakedown paddle/sail?

(33 posts) (22 voices)

Started 4 years ago by Iszatarock
Latest reply from SailBirdMike

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Iszatarock
Member

Folks,

I agree with the folks who suggest letting go of the CG bashing that's been going on. They didn't do everything right. But then, neither did we.

I don't agree with the folks that suggest that we should all be quiet until all the information on rescues is in. Or that this is all Chief's call and we should just wait to hear what he decides. There are a lot of changes that will need to be made. And while decisions should certainly await compilation of as much information as possible, observations and discussions should continue.

Having participated in the inspection process this year and having my own positive and negative experiences during the past 6 ECs, I feel strongly that we need to adopt some better methods to improve safety. It's great having lots of participants at the start. But when a significant number of them are not even close to being ready to go on Saturday morning, I think we need to raise the bar a little. The big question is, how do we discourage or prevent the ill-prepared from starting without imposing overly onerous requirements.

I propose one fairly straightforward rule: You have to demonstrate your and your boat's capabilities in a 60 mile, 2 day paddle/sail/row in conditions that include winds over 10 mph and open water (waves over 2 feet) BEFORE the Friday before the event. This could be documented with with a SPOT track and a trip log. No major modifications to your boat can be made without another qualification run. (Maybe the shakedown requirements get easier if the mods are small.) The inspection team reviews the documented trip and defers any borderline case decisions to the Chief.

This, by the way, would have prevented me from participating in all but my second EC. And I've had three really solid, fast, and safe trips. So maybe it's too hard. But it would have prevented me from entering the two events where lack of a proper shakedown of my boat and self rescue techniques arguably imposed an inappropriate risk of needing to call for a CG rescue.

Don't get hung up with the numbers. Comment on whether a shakedown requirement should be considered.

IsZataRock

Posted 4 years ago #
SailBirdMike
Inactive

I definitely agree it should be a consideration.

Posted 4 years ago #
feralcat
Blocked

Qualifications? I vote for at least 200 derby points on the water in the vessel you will be using.

Cheers, Feralcat

Posted 4 years ago #
stripbuilder
Member

Mike has a good idea. The shakedown paddle/sail could be done and entered in the derby - like at least three

long runs of 20+ miles. These runs should be done in big water not small sheltered lakes and streams.

Posted 4 years ago #
ZeroTheHero
Member

As long as we are brain storming here I have a few thoughts as well.

I like the idea of a qualifying trip. There are many ways this could be done. I might caution one point. If eager people who are not up to the task get into trouble doing this requirement, is WT in any way responsable? Not sure but it would be worth knowing the answer before making the requirement.

I have kicked around the idea that there may need to be a cap on the # of participants each year. Personally I don't like this idea but watching the event grow over the last few years makes me wonder if at some point it gets too big. Sort of a "too big to succeed" situation. I realize that I am personally one of those that has been drawn in during this time of growth and understand that folks like me who talk the event up are not helping that problem.

Perhaps there could be a list of guidelines for craft selection. Again, not my favorite idea. I am not suggesting a list of boats or classes. I suppose I just trying to figure out a way to offset the growing number of people intersted in the more extreme limits of size. I am really not of fan of this type of change at all but just throwing things at the wall to see what sticks. Maybe I am searching for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Just my thoughts. It's a slipery slope to be sure. My experience as a school board member has taught me this, once you start making policies and rules, it is very hard to stop. Mentally you start looking for "trouble" and trying to head it off. It's a shift in mindset that can take hold.

ZTH

Posted 4 years ago #
Archangel
Member

Isza,

Not a bad idea, similar to something I posted in a parallel thread... Considering some people come from very far away, not near another WT event. I like the idea of a course using a tracking device of some sort - spot, GPS log, log book, etc., in the vessel used without any major modifications since. I think I noted winds over 20 and waves over 3', so race management knows you can handle it.

Posted 4 years ago #
DrDemento
Member

I agree with Iszatarock. I have participated in a number of extreme sports events (although a first timer to WaterTribe). Events put on in the sphere of the National Forest Service Service or the National Parks Service ALL require safety crews; insurance; experienced shakedowns and so on. Here these events seems to have been set up a decade ago to "fly under the radar". Thoses days are gone folks. When you gather 140 boats or snowmobiles or climbers or sled dog teams at the start of an event to start out and compete in territory serviced by the National Forest Service Service or the National Parks Service -or- the Coast Guard; you're doing it with their sanction and pre-approval or you're going to get shurt down.

Our National Forest Service Service or the National Parks Service -or- the Coast Guard - - - are there to insure the safety of participants and all those who interact with the participants. They deserve our thanks and respect. It is the event organizer (at $400.- per person. . . . hello?!) who are responsible for dealing with things when they go wrong. Remember Tribers. . . responsible is made up of two words - "response" & "able". By the way. . . why does the web site go down e-v-e-r-y- y-e-a-r???

Posted 4 years ago #
seabag
Member

For the little fifty/ sixty boat non extreme row/sail boat event (a class 4 rally) we do here in Maine, we do ask people for resumes and have decided that both some folks need more experience and that some craft are ill suited. We do have some real floatation requirements and the services of a volunteer NA to check these. And we do have some crash boats. Our issues are the potential of serious fogs in a guaranteed hypothermic environment. A turtle situation in one boat length visibility brought this home the first year we ran the event. So while a SPOT based qualifier may be a little much it might not be a bad thing to at least ask people to summarize their experience WITH the boat they intend using. Partiticipation in at least a Ultramarathon might be the filter. I know I learned alot in the OFUM that I was able to do last year.

Posted 4 years ago #
JoeVanGeaux
Member

As I noted in recent threads and not being experienced in WaterTribe events, I would actually welcome a requirement for a demonstration of boat handling competency with the boat of choice as it would be rigged and laden for the event planned and under conditions that could reasonalbly be expected during that event.

[The length of that sentence would not pass for having good structure, but I could not separate the thoughts,easily.]

Derby points with GPS could work but they could, also, easily be attainable under relatively mild conditions, so some form of fairly objective documentation should be used to support the value of those derby points. I live in Southeast Texas and there aren't many Tribers or like-minded sailors around here (that I know of, anyway) for convenient gatherings and group training. And, we also go through some pretty lengthy doldrums - but then we are defintely not short of sailing in clear skies one minute and slugging it out to get to safety all within the next three to five minutes, either!

Before I ran out of time to make the mods for my boat to particpate in the EC2015, I had in mind the idea to enlist the local CG squad on a large nearby lake to attend my knock-down and righting exercises in view of their dock and in crappy weather - at their convenience, of course. That would give me the experience and practice I felt I would need and, who knows, maybe even give the CG guys a chance to practice, as well, under conditions not involving Labor Day weekend, the Fourth of July or Memorial Day (traditionally, these or our local days of diaster on the lake).

I am not entirely pleased with how some of the officials exercised their authority, to be sure, but criticizing their actions is one thing and making an outright adversary of them is an entirely different matter - I'm all for citizen's rights and a free America, but guess who will win that battle! If all CG members across the country read some of the venon being posted I don't think I will have a chance to enlist their assistance with the exercise I have been contemplating. And, good luck getting their cooperation with future WT events, in general.

Posted 4 years ago #
seabag
Member

Try the CG. When I was a professional kayak guide here in Maine we organized a number of training opportunities where we both learned. If the local station can't help, talk to the Auxiliary. If nothing else, get one of your buddies with a powerboat to stand by.

But you might just start by rolling the boat at the beach to see how it behaves, if you haven't done so. Things like is your mast sealed to help prevent turtleing, can you reach the centerboard from the water and can you get on it? Is your rig set up so you can reach a halyard and lower the sail when you are in the water or from the cockpit of the swamped boat? Is all your gear lashed into the boat so you are not a yard sale? Is your anchor lashed in so it doesn't fall out?

Then if all this works go out in deeper and rougher stuff. The hardest capsize from which to recover is a downwind death roll. Try it.

Posted 4 years ago #
Sirtackalot
Member

Guys, a few comments. First, the Coast guard have been involved in the past with WT. Back in 11 they pulled a swamped kayaker and her boat out of the water by Ft. Myers at night. The triber spent the night in the hospital. In '13 Puma sank his cat and had to be rescued and last year my son-in-law was air lifted after becoming ill. All 3 cases may have saved someone's life. After this year, the CG will be more involved....... Second. If you are going to qualify people, a 20 or 60 mile sail or paddle on lake is nothing like the gulf. I am not a fan but 3 choices would be ; 1. Show proof that you have completed some type of similar event . A small boat race, a canoe race, kayaking for week down the Amazon....something. 2. Do the race the first time with a experienced WT person. Most new people joining are because of friends telling them about it. 3. A "test" sail/cruise a few days before. Let the powers to be decide if the boat or the person was not ready. Yes that's more time off work, yes you might not get to do the EC but at least that person is safe and not overwhelmed coming off the beach or in the middle of the night somewhere by themselves. I also want to say I have truly enjoyed the WT spirt over the last 5 years and 6 events I've been in. But as the old sayings goes " the times are a changing" ........

Posted 4 years ago #
Spike
Member

As a member aspiring to participate in the UM and then the EC I think a mentor is a great idea. It definitely fits with the Water Tribe spirit. Proving your experience in other events would be okay also, however not all the events that are entered will consist of the types of conditions that have occurred here on the gulf coast. My plan was to take multi day shakedown cruises along the EC route just to test the waters, so to speak. Having a log and SPOT tracking of the cruises would hopefully cover the requirements. As far as other past experiences, some would be hard to prove. Yes I have a ton of time in small craft on the gulf coast but how is that proven. I'm not really a regatta type. The hairiest moment occurred on a 48' Soverel Ketch in the middle of the bay in an afternoon thunderstorm. Lightning, water spouts, and waves breaking over the full length of the deck.

Posted 4 years ago #
BeastOarman
Member

Iszatarock wrote:

I don't agree with the folks that suggest that we should all be quiet until all the information on rescues is in. Or that this is all Chief's call

Sorry, 'rock, I've got to respectfully disagree with you on both those points. Personally I prefer to have facts about the problem before professing a solution. And in the end, I do believe it is Chief's call, much as we all feel some ownership.

Having said that, I certainly do suspect that the major contributing factor is not enough time in the selected craft with the full load in adverse conditions. But before we carve that in stone and build all kinds of rules around it, wouldn't it make sense to see if that really was the problem? Or to see if there were other issues as well that should not be overlooked? For example, this is the first time we went with that "inspection team" concept that you were part of. And the one rescue we have some details about, seems clear there were no sealed bulkheads and not enough positive flotation, and inadequate sprayskirts. If we aren't rigorous in our inspections, what makes us think we would be rigorous in any other rules we dream up?

Anyhow, we all want to help, we just have different ways of approaching it. I just want to make sure we fix more than we break, so I prefer an analytical approach.

Posted 4 years ago #
JoeWildlife
Member

Beast, you nailed it.

Posted 4 years ago #
CaptKirk
Member

I was unable to launch Saturday not because the boat wasn't ready that day, but because it wasn't ready a month before. I've been sailing for 50 odd years, but I'm not going to singlehand an open boat that I haven't sailed, capsized, overcanvasted, surfed, etc. I am not however inclined to take someone on a cruise to rate my competance and abilities. How could you possibly schedule adverse conditions before hand? I will show you my boats log book, Does anyone but me still keep a log book? I will discuss handling, I will submit to a rigorius inspection. I thought that the EC was the shakedown challenge for the UC. From what I have read on this forum, the big issue on the crossing was bulkheads, floatation and rudders for the kayaks, an inspection issue, and sailing unballasted dingys in confused seas for the class fours. The Gods willing, I will be on the beach for the Blackbeard Challenge, and approved, sanctioned or not I will run the course. In the interim, I will be sailing my Ohio sharpie, as much as possible, and not just on the nice days.

Posted 4 years ago #
DeadCat
Blocked

Some additional thoughts about using the derby as a potential qualifier. In order to facilitate the or encourge challengers to complete 2 back to back 20 milers, run the derby from Saturday to Saturday vice Sunday to Sunday. 40 plus miles in a weekend would go far in preparing challengers.

Cheers, FeralCat

Posted 4 years ago #
BeastOarman
Member

Agreed that would be a good mod to the Derby!

Posted 4 years ago #
Proudfoot
Member

I wonder if one of the things that may lead to some people being less prepared than they could/should be is the timing of the event (early March). I know that for myself (being from the Great White North) it would be difficult for me to do prep, testing etc due to weather, lack of "sailable" water. I would almost need to do everything on the boat by mid October at the latest - people are still ice fishing up here in March. I wonder if there is a different level of preparedness at the late summer/fall events due to the extra prep time available. Just a thought...

Posted 4 years ago #
BeastOarman
Member

Proudfoot, you are correct that practicing with your craft has to be done months in advance up here. I am in the Northeast, and although I can (sometimes) get on the water in the winter because it is salt water, going out when it is rough is exponentially more dangerous. So I do that part of it by Thanksgiving at the latest, after which it is more physical conditioning. But I welcome the early March EC as my breakup of the long winter and my jump into Spring training for races. I think after the first challenge, it becomes more a year-long affliction than a short term prep. Unless you get or build a new boat ; )

Posted 4 years ago #
ZeroTheHero
Member

Proudfoot, I hear you loud and clear but the March timing is well planned for FL weather. It is at the end of the winter pattern of weather down there so it's warmer than it's been, but still with the hope of wind. Wait to much longer and FL. transitions into it's summer pattern. In fact some years the EC is influenced by a summer pattern more than a winter one. Also I am from VT, so I know your pain in regards to hard water from Thanksgiving to April or May. For my attempt I made no changes to the boat after sailing it all summer. At the begining of summer we started out with partial loads, by the end we were loaded. We did our capsize test in October in our lake. Pretty good, except it wasn't a very rough body of water. Over the winter I did minor work on the boat and gave it a careful once over. Good thing too as I discovered a crack in the top of the centerboard. Couldn't remove it from the boat but I developed a plan. A Nomad has to be launched to remove the cb. Basically all winter I made sure I knew everything was good to go. We left on Monday for the drive down. Got to FL. Wednessday evening. Tore it down in the parking lot of the hotel, checked everything over again. Thursday We cleaned it, loaded it, went sailing, hauled it, broke it down again. Friday we put it on the beach. If you can, give yourself that extra time in FL before the event. It's very worth it.

Posted 4 years ago #
Proudfoot
Member

Thanks for the feedback/info everyone - I'm completely unfamiliar with Florida's weather patterns. Sounds like you guys have your prep work all sorted out ahead of time - as I'm sure the more experienced boaters do. I've been lurking for years and would love to do a challenge - for me, especially as a first timer, probably the best option would be an event later in the year where I could really wring the boat out, get max prep work done, get more feedback from people etc prior to attempting a challenge - maybe even going to the location of the event and doing an exploratory cruise to get a feel for things.

Thanks again for the info

Posted 4 years ago #
ZeroTheHero
Member

Proudfoot, maybe an NCC? Less driving too. I went to college at Eckerd College which is about 6 miles from the EC start. Was on the sailing team. March is good sailing weather in FL. Far from hurricane season, still good wind, daytime temps are on the rise. In the summer pattern the gulf is a mill pound until the land heats up. Then you get a sea breeze being sucked in by the thermal. Then the thunderstorms build. But I should let this go and let the thread back to it's own course

Posted 4 years ago #
stargazer
Member

Register the event with the Coast Guard and let them decide if we can launch! Neither any number of fair weather trips anywhere or the fact that you haven't completed an EC prove little when things get rough. As far as showing papers to support your Qualification, I trashed that stuff, when I swallowed the anchor, moving to the midwest after a career in the Navy and 15 years of living aboard. What's next, age limits?

Posted 4 years ago #
Iszatarock
Member

Good comments!

Beast, my suggestion is largely based on past events, especially my own experiences. This year's event will add to the dataset. But I agree that analysis is is good. It would be good to compile data on both rescues and near misses.

March is tough to prepare for in Colorado too. They close our lakes on Dec 1! But it's good time in Florida. So I think of it as another part of the challenge to get ready early.

Posted 4 years ago #
JoeVanGeaux
Member

I cancelled out of the EC because both me and my boat weren't ready before the deadline... it hadn't occurred to me what the real world deadline was for those of you in the frozen north!

Late last year I was beginning to think I was showing too much of my usual over-cautiousness with some of the mods I was working on. Now, I feel those plans were all well justified, but I have a year now to get on with the mods and still have a lot of time for practicing.

This year's debacle has been an extremely disappointing time for all that showed up to the starting line as well as even more onlookers, BUT I, for one, already see my boat and planned training will benefit from it.

Posted 4 years ago #
Iszatarock
Member

I need to clarify my poor wording in my initial posting when I said I disagreed with the view: Or that this is all Chief's call and we should just wait to hear what he decides. BeastOarsMan caught it and yet I still didn't notice. Chief, please be patient with me. I should have said: "Or that, since this is Chief's call anyway, we should just wait to hear what he decides." It IS Chief's call and most of us know that we will never dictate anything to him. That doesn't mean we can't SUGGEST things to him.

I would be very surprised if he doesn't implement some method of reviewing and judging the capability of entrants into the EC as he has already done for the UF. If he doesn't, we'll live with it.

The point of this thread was to see if WTers had some thoughts on how capability can be shown without making it overly burdensome. I thought some kind of shakedown cruise would be good. It's similar to Chief's requirement to complete an EC (or equivalent) prior to entering the UF. Some folks agree. Some folks apparently do not. Some just want me to be quiet. But that's not likely to happen unless I hear from Chief.

Posted 4 years ago #
WindwardMark
Member

I like the idea of additional screening criteria. Here is my two cents worth.

Before your payment is accepted for the event registration:

1. Post a video online of a full capsize recovery in the boat you will use, loaded as it would be at the EC start, with the crew that will be on board.

2. Post a log of a (to be determined) specified number of hours or miles in the boat you will use in varied conditions. This could be accomplished through the derby.

There is a problem with the beach inspection. Who wants to tell someone to pack up and go home when they are on the beach ready to go? Plus, you cannot judge someone's experience and skills when you meet them for the first time on the beach. The decision should be made before payment is accepted, before people arrive on the beach.

A qualifier event would add extra expense and vacation time, and may not be feasible for some depending on where they live. Also it may not prove anything if the conditions happen to be nice.

I would not apply design criteria for boats. Innovation in boat design is part of the Watertribe spirit. Let people demonstrate if a boat design is suitable.

I would apply the criteria to veterans each year as well as first timers to the EC. A veteran who is finishing their boat in the campground the night before may be totally ill-prepared, while a "newbie" may have years of experience in their boat.

Capsize practice is a good thing to do repeatedly, and the library of online videos would help to exchange ideas and develop skills in the community.

The details of recent events are not known, but it is a good discussion to have in any case.

Posted 4 years ago #
CleanSlate
Member

All I can say is what worked for me to become prepared to successfully complete my first challenge. Derby Derby Derby. I did a 20 mile outing with full load each week for the months leading up to my first challenge. In doing that I experienced all sorts of weather conditions including water simmar to what I hear was in Tampa Bay for this year's EC. I also discovered the weaknesses of my boat - some things broke and I fixed them and made them stronger. I also went on a couple longer over-night trips with a more senior Watertriber (DogsLife in my case) to learn some great tips. I also worked out at the gym for general all around fitness. Did I mention the derby? Hey I even won it on points that first year it was held (just barely). I would recommend these strategies to anyone starting out.

Posted 4 years ago #
kayakman7
Member

What works for some doesn't work for all. I have sailed my boat Sacha seven times. She was completed 2 or 3 months before her first challenge. She has had an expedition load twice. On her fifth sail, I placed eleventh in the 2013EC. On her seventh sail, I placed fourth in the 2014BCC with a broken rudder.

Please don't create or suggest a system that would exclude someone because they can't sail a long distance or have a certain number of derby points.

Posted 4 years ago #
BeastOarman
Member

I agree, K7, we need to encourage innovation. We need to figure out a balance.
I was hoping for more background on what actually happened and why, before new rules were carved out.

Posted 4 years ago #