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Reefing Rule

(147 posts) (38 voices)
  • Started 1 year ago by Chief
  • Latest reply from KiwiBird

Tags:

  • Bass Strait
  • BSD 38 Class 3 PAS
  • expodition kayaks
  • fast sea kayaks
  • feks
  • Reef
  • reefing
  • rule
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  • Schooner rig with a Boss
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  1. HalfKnot
    Member

    I'm planning to race a Hobie 21 in the NC race this fall.  I don't want to start modifying my main if I'm not going to be allowed to participate to start with.  I'm willing to install reef points to meet the rule, but in reality, I doubt we would ever use them.  I wouldn't leave the beach if it was blowing much over 25 knots anyway, and simply wait it out.

    I've sailed the 21 in San Francisco bay when it was blowing something over 30 under main alone, but only to meet a deadline.  Otherwise it wouldn't have left the beach.  Up to 25 knots or so is simply fun, but much over that with higher gusts, and it's best to find the shore. 

    Hobie 16's, years ago, had reef points in the main, and another lug on the halyard to engage the hook at the mast head.  They did away with those almost 30 years ago.  If there was enough wind to need a reef, the boat was just as likely to get blown over under bare poles.  Cats, that normally carry 2 sails, can make decent headway under main alone upwind in strong wind, by travelling out the wide traveller, but it still takes an experienced hand on the stick.  The person who doesn't know how to do that, is not going to fair any better in a blow with a reefed sail.

    I live on a lake, and when I see whitecaps, I keep a lookout for someone in trouble.  I've rescued more than a few sailors who got in over their heads thinking more wind equals more fun.  Sailing in sporty conditions is more of a challange for experience, than can be simply made safe by rules for the boat.

    Sailing a beach cat in winds 25 knots and even some above, is not hard for the sailor who knows how, but a real bear for someone who doesn't.  In Windsurfing, they call it the 10 knot barrier for new sailors, since it works sort of the same way.

    To the Hobie 17 sailor:  I sailed with a group of 17's from Maui to Oahu one day.  Deane Froome, of Oahu, had bought some of the boats used at the 17 Worlds on Maui in the late '80s.  He needed them delivered to Oahu, and I had some extra time.  We left at about 10:30 in the morning, and arrived in Kailua Bay at about 5:30.  25 knot winds, and waves big enough that when you looked back, they were about half mast high with the boat wake coming down the face.  Full sail was no problem at all, but if it had been blowing much harder, it would have been foolish for us to be out there.  We stopped on Molokai to eat a packed lunch.  Winds were above baseline these days for small craft advisories, but there were no inexperienced sailors in the lot.  It was a great day.  It could have very easily been a bad day for someone with little experience in the conditons.

    I looked for any information on Randy in the Fla event but didn't find any.  Did he have some sort of trouble?

     

     

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. Chief
    Coastal Vagabond

    Why do you think you might not be able to participate if you install the required reefs?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. LeatherLungs
    Member

    >but only to meet a deadline.  Otherwise it wouldn't have left the beach.

    Halfknot.,

    The NCC has 2 deadlines. After prepping for months and finally making it to the starting line, you'll find yourself in a somewhat of a different mindset than a day sail/bouy race.

    EC2012 had a small craft warning at the start and all but 8 left the beach. Most of us would not have left if we were not in an exhibition style race that could last up to a week. Were we the most cautious sailors? Probably not. But we were challenged and I had a blast.

    Prior to the race, I requested a 2nd reef waiver as I have done some pretty hard core sailing with my boat and sail rig. I gave a pretty compelling case, to where I was almost granted the waiver. Chief consulted Wizard, a very experienced Class 4 WTer, who cautioned against the waiver and Chief decided to deny the waiver.

    Again, in my previous adventures, I probably would not have been sailing in those conditions, but on start day I decide to give it a shot thinking I could always drop out. I ended up with that 2nd reef in for the first two days and was thankful I was not granted the waiver. I would've been out early without it, and was much safer and under control with it.

    Like you, I was willing to get the 2nd reef installed thinking I wouldn't need it but was glad I did.

    I can't chime in with any technical advice as I'm know expert in sail theory, but I but I think in the end the guys that are will have their say and the Chief will make the right decision for the whole tribe.

    I'll comply and I'll see yiz on the beach!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. SailBirdMike
    Member

    HalfKnot, safety HAS to be paramount.  When I set up our 18' trimaran for the 2011 EC, the thought in my mind was always "the boat has to be safe if we get caught out in 60 knot winds".  We never were, and we never put in the second reef in the main, but I was sure glad it was there.  Our tri is good under full canvas up to 25 knots, 30-35 knots under reefed main and jib, 35 to 40 under a single reefed main alone, and with our second deep reef in, 40 to 50.  Obviously, these figures have to be factored with sea state, direction of the wind, and, most importantly, crew state.  Our tri is built for survival as much as speed... an 18' boat with a 19' mast, hoisting a square-topped main of 102 sq ft, and a jib of 58 sq ft.   Our center of effort is extremely low, and our boat is extremely stable.

    I too have many stories of my lifelong sailing prowess on the Great Lakes, inland lakes, and the Gulf (some are even fairly accurate too!) but I can tell you this: none of that added up to what the Everglades Challenge did.  And we didn't finish.  Our first attempt prepared us for the things we needed to alter, both on the boat and within ourselves, and the 2013 EC is waiting for us.  And we'll be there, prepared, safe, and ready.

    I made a comment in an earlier post in this thread, which, after reflection, I expanded upon and posted on my blog.  It's kind of a creed... at least for me:

    The Responsibility of Independence…

    “There aren’t too many small boat voyagers left, and we are they. Those of us with experience sailing, paddling, and rowing light expeditionary craft on adventuresome treks have a bit of a duty to set good, seamanlike examples to those who are paying attention to what we do, both to further the passion, and ensure that those who follow our path do so in safety. For they, in turn, will be the ones to further the passion in years to come.”

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. CrazyRussian
    Member

    Halfknot. I'm known around here as inflatable bed sailor, I like a soft ride. However many years ago, when grass was greener and all rules fit on one page, I took an old A-class catamaran for a ride (wooden boat with alum mast). I just checked all results. Surprisingly, there was no single solo beach cat sailor made to the finish ever since.
    I'm strong believer that beach cats in EC need ability to reduce sail area. I'm with Chief here, 100 percent. However, unlike Chief, I understand all the complexity of installing reefs on modern racing cat. I also understand that beach cat racing culture will refuse reefs. In my opinion, solution is simple - either reefs OR purposefully built small mainsail. Beach cats are stable. Replacing sails on water shouldnt be a problem.
    In 2003 we got exceptionally nice weather. I had my share of adventures and i was running in the middle of the pack. I got in 10000 isl area after sunset. Excellent weather, breeze at 12-14 knots of wind on a broad reach. My boat, overloaded, still easily matched the wind speed. Only one problem. I didn't know where to go, my two GPSs were dead and water was half a foot deep in places. I was very happy I had reefs, I took two and managed to keep a speed at slow 5 knots. Made to the checkpoint. Almost. Stuck on an oyster bar inside of Choko Bay one mile from the checkpoint, went to bed untill sunrise. Waves from motorboats woke me up. They were washing over me, I mean over trampoline I slept on.

    Speaking about Randy. He broke his boat at about 290 mile marker

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. ZeroTheHero
    Member

    Crazzyrussian, no singlehander since?  Wow, will have to take a good long time thinking about that.  Honestly I think the 17 is out for me.  The wife wants to go too and the 17 is no good for that.  Your comment, and this years conditions make me think my Wave idea might not be a bad one for solo.  But that is for another time, right now that wave is the lake boat here in VT, period.  Or the 17 hulls with the Wave rig?  Whatever, I'm nuts.  My attention is shifting quickly to the Nomad, a boat that has always been in the back of my mind anyway.  I have loads more experience in mono's anyway.  

    Halfknot, I was thinking like you till this years race.  I went down to see them off and I was jittery on the beach and I wasn't going anywhere.  I used to think like you, just sit it out.  In this race however that isn't always possible.  Just being there and following along on day 1 down to Sarasota my assumptions have been tossed out.  Previously I thought I would just go outside, all the way.  Now I don't think so.  On the beach on Friday I was talking to Bumpy (Tornado sailor) and he was saying that in all the previous races they had never stopped due to weather, never reefed either.  Well they stopped this year.  I too had thought that I would just sit tight and call a weather hold if was too much.  But you have deadlines to make and after spending the kind of $ it takes I don't want a DQ if I can reasonably prepare myself for the possible conditions.  And the weakest part of the whole operation isn't the boat, it's the grey matter holding the tiller and making the calls.  Once past Marco Island it gets lonely for a long time (I would ssume).  Also the Gulf is weird.  Not unmanagable but weird.  I went to college in St. Pete and learned to surf at Lido Beach, Treasure Island, and Pass-a-grill with a few trips to the east coast.  The Gulf is all wind chop.  It's short, steep and the wave length is something like 1/3 that of a typical ocean chop.  The gulf is shallow, and the west coast is shallow far from shore.  I thought all surfing was duck diving every 10 seconds to get to the line up (in waist high) till I got to RI.  Suddenly surfing overhead was easier than paddling off the beach in St Pete. When the wind is up it is whitecaps as far out as you can see and they look just as steep and big as the shore break.

    Chief, I think he is worried that you might bump him even with reefs given early statements in this thread.  I'll admit I was concerned too.  It's your show but it worries some of us.

    BTW I might keep the H17 for the NCC, your thoughts Chief?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. Chief
    Coastal Vagabond

    I am not a beach cat sailor but I do recognize that it can be difficult to install reefs in high tech sails that were never intended for reefing. But for those with the expedition mind set reefing is essential and any difficulties must be overcome or choose a different boat.

    No worries about having your boat disqualified either. If you have what started as a beach cat with hulls less then 22'6" and your sails meet the reefing rule, your boat will not be DQed. A Hobie 21 or 17 is more than welcome. As is a Hobie 16 or Wave or Getaway. I'll even tolorate an inflatable from time to time :)

    Besides reefing, there is another thing that beach cats and any boat at the larger end of the spectrum needs to consider. You will have to drop the mast for at least one filter. Virtually all beach cats are trailerable so dropping the mast should not be a major problem. Just remember you are not on a trailer when doing it and it is only you and your crew doing the job.

    Another problem that has to be overcome for beach cats is paddling. This could be why only one single has finished in a cat (tip of the hat to CrazyRussian). Paddling a cat is much easier for two people to manage. CrazyRussian had his boat setup for rowing and it seemed to work well. Checkout the video of him shooting Big Shoals. Some of you guys thinking of a solo attempt might want to consider rowing. Another option might be a sculling oar. However, standing on the tramp to scull doesn't seem very appealing to me.

    Remember that all this discussion about beach cats is intended to help those sailors finish in a race that is very much different than any other sailing race on the planet. I love cats and tris and lusted after the Hobie 21 camping version for years. I have plans for the James Warren Tiki 21 and might build her someday. I have studied the Jim Brown Seaclipper 20 and might build one of those. I'm building (for the last 3 years) the Gary Dierking Tamanu.

    Just take care of the sails and maybe shift your mindset from aggressive sailor to prudent sailor and you'll do fine.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. Patowatomie
    Member

    Chief,

    What sort of sail area are you thinking of putting on your Tamanu?  Are you going to use your inflatable amas?  I'm still messing with mine--but in a cat configuration with a H18 rig.  I'm contemplating a second boat that I'm calling a solo+ boat that has about 400# buoyancy for crew or stores making it a good daysailer for one or two, or a tripper solo.

    I'm also interested in the other boats you mention, but I'm realizing the H21SC is really heavy for what it is.  The seaclipper 20 is interesting as well, but also seems heavy.  Perhaps the scantlings could be reduced a bit?  After all, the Buccaneer 24 uses 4mm in it's hulls and it's done fine.

    Finally, thanks for putting on theis event as it's fun to watch.  With my teaching schedule I can't make it, but I've watched it faithfully each year.

     

    Dan

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. DogPaddler
    Member

    According to the new rules, I see that my "Three Amigos", an 18 ft Seda triple masted trimaran configured kayak with high volume inflatables, which finished the NCC 2010, is now considered an instant DSQ.  Sail size limits have been added to class 3 (max 78 sq ft per person) and 3 masted boats are banned because "they don't seem like a small boat".  This sounds a little arbitrary.

    Balogh sails are (small) sails, and to get sailboat performance in (light air) it is necessary to add a third sail.  I designed this rig to be versatile with multiple sail configurations.  I can step 1, 2, or a 3rd mast for the appropriate wind speeds.  The headsail can be doused with a downhaul to the cockpit, and main and mizzen both have double reefs, which satisfies the new requirements and makes perfect sense.

    Total sail area of 106 sq ft (36,38,32) for an 18 ft tri is not a large amount of sail for LIGHT WINDS.  This boat was finished in early 2008 and was tested for 2 1/2 yrs before entering the NCC.  (No bent or damaged parts)  Why?  I don't overpower my rig.

    I would argue that a third standing mast is simpler and easier to handle.  1 control line, self tacking, and safer than a jib with 2 control lines to snag.  I'd also make the point that a 2 masted monohull with an additional jenny, jenniker, or spinnaker, is far more at risk of capsizing than my stable tri.  The same applies to class 5 cats and tri's as sailing these gets even more technical with their unlimited sail power. 

    Besides sailing my 3 Balogh rigged kayaks for the past 8 yrs,  I've been sailing since I was a child.  Dyer Dink, Sunfish, Force5, Lightning, Venture Catamaran, Bristol 27.  In addition, I've ice sailed and am an accomplished windsurfer with over 20 yrs experience, including long board and short board racing in the Northeastern states.  Do I think I'm the world's greatest sailor?  Certainly not!  But, I think I have enough experience and the (good judgement) to know how to safely rig, douse, and reef for the appropriate conditions.

    Chief,  I'm asking you to reconsider the aforementioned rules which unfairly single out my boat design. 

    Brad

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. SailBirdMike
    Member

    DogPaddler, I think that was a misread... I was under the impression that Chief wouldn't personally want a boat with 3 standing sails.  I hope that's the case, because your Seda 18 sounds like a great setup!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. mistermoon
    Member

    To paraphrase former Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart:


    I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description [proper and effective reefing set-ups for small expedition sailboats]*; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture   boat involved in this case is not that.


     


    *The original phrase in here was "hard-core pornography".


     


    I think the rule should be a consensus of a group experienced WT'ers on inspection beach, with Chief having final say-so after hearing all sides.


     


    I think as a group "we know it when we see it."


     


     


     

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. Chief
    Coastal Vagabond

    First, I am using the 80 sqft roller reefing sail in Gary's Tamanu design. I had the sail made according to his specs at JSI (Doyle). It is on a carbon fiber mast that I am adapting from a windsurfer mast. I am using my own Classic 16 Amas because they weigh less and provide about 6 times the flotation when compared to the original ama design.

    On the triple masted Seda, there is no rule that specifies the number of masts. I only replied to a comment made about how a triple masted boat could reduce sail by taking down the center sail. Which, of course, is true, but would not satisfy the reworded reefing rule. Your three masted kayak is OK except perhaps for the total square footage. I don't recall some of the details of your boat. Do you have longer amas? What does high volume inflatables mean?

    As to your level of sailing ability, I have no doubt you are a prudent and expert sailor. The problem with rules is that they must deal with everyone. Some need a little help in setting up for these events because they are expanding their experience into somewhat new adventures.

    And yes, I do know it when I see it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. SailBirdMike
    Member

    The normal definition of high volume and low volume amas is this: a high volume ama has more flotation than the total displacement of the boat (a trimaran with high volume amas has the capability of flying both the windward ama AND the vaka).  A low volume ama will submerge before the vaka lifts clear of the water.

    In daysailing tris, the displacement of the boat and an average crew size would be used to determine high or low volume, but the extra loads we carry may not be factored in completely.

    Both designs have advantages... a high volume ama'd tri can drive harder, carry more sail, and thus usually go faster, whereas a low volume one will eventually submerge an ama.  However, capsizing a high volume boat usually happens with less warning, and is a faster, more violent capsize than a low volume boat.  A boat with low volume amas may be easier to right, as well.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. ThisTripIsNecessary
    Member

    SailBirdMike wrote:

    The normal definition of high volume and low volume amas is this: a high volume ama has more flotation than the total displacement of the boat (a trimaran with high volume amas has the capability of flying both the windward ama AND the vaka).  A low volume ama will submerge before the vaka lifts clear of the water.

    In daysailing tris, the displacement of the boat and an average crew size would be used to determine high or low volume, but the extra loads we carry may not be factored in completely.

    Both designs have advantages... a high volume ama'd tri can drive harder, carry more sail, and thus usually go faster, whereas a low volume one will eventually submerge an ama.  However, capsizing a high volume boat usually happens with less warning, and is a faster, more violent capsize than a low volume boat.  A boat with low volume amas may be easier to right, as well.

     --- I do not disagree with these no-doubt-generally-accepted definitions. However, as one who has fooled around with a variety of amas on sailing canoes, I sometimes wish there were in-between categories (the human mind is both aided and plagued by categories). 

    Thus I like to call a low-volume ama one that sinks much sooner than the general definition -- it covers the native log-ama proas to some degree, as well as the low-impact amas (weight and drag) for outriggers that must be more actively sailed, or a flooding ama I designed for my old proa, which sinks easily if you are caught aback, but on the "shunting Pacific proa tack" offers huge ballast when lifted (and can be drained for paddling or trailering). I used this on a proa and it was fascinating though hair-raising until you got used to it. Not recommended for expeditions while exhausted or hallucinatory.

    A medium-volume ama has enough displacement to support the sailor's weight for reboarding -- I consider it a minimal displacement for safety. For most practical purposes it might considered a 50% or 75% (for you ultra-tech carbon builders) ama since with sailor aboard and expedition load, the ama could be over-powered in brisk sailing. This is my usual ama for my 16 foot outrigger with 90 square feet of low-set rig, and it has served well. When reaching or close reaching in good winds and boat speed around 9 knots, it is submarined and still at work, but again, not recommended for expeditions while exhausted or hallucinatory. A nice feature is that it could be sunk by sailor weight for righting, or pulled over for righting in themore usual way, possibly with righting pole. Mine can be opened to be flooded for the former method but at 80 pounds it is light enough to ne rotated over the vaka (main hull). I totally love SOS's open, flooding amas on Mosquito, which makes oneless thing to do during capsize recovery. 

    This medium category is pretty flexible I guess depending on the vaka. My 400 pound displacement Watertribe inflatables were not high-volume because my vaka is over-built and heavier than it should be, and added to that the expedition load, so 400 pounds is still over-powered in some condition. With an 18-20 foot hull built well, it would be a 100% ama (say 100 pound hull, 100 pound gear+rig, 20 pounds akas, 180 pound typical overweight American).  Yet mine hardly blinked during the line squall of day 2 in EC2011, during a half-hour hard tacking in 3-5 foot seas.

    The high-volume ama stays as defined by SailBirdMike. --Wade

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. Chief
    Coastal Vagabond

    I have modified the reefing rule to allow up to 114 sqft for class 3 IF you have full length amas. I sort of recall DogPaddler's amas which would qualify as full length. In the context of class 3, which is a long way from trimaran design, I consider these amas high volume.

    If someone in class 3 has more sail area than that, their boat would be moved to class 4 or 5 depending on whether or not they had outriggers. Yes, it is possible to have a class 3 boat without outriggers although I don't recommend it for most people.

    The new rule would allow up to three BSD 38 sqft sails. All three would have to have double reefs. Of course it would also allow 2 BSD 5 meter sails. Again both would have to have double reefs. Many other combinations are possible.

    Remember that all parts of the sail rig must be stowable in the boat in a safe and seaworthy manner along with a full load of the Required Equipment, food and water. That's going to be tough if you max out the sails and it will be checked at inspection. If you can't pass this part of the inspection, you won't be DQed, but you will be moved to the appropriate class.

    Also, some have moved to a double kayak with a single paddler. This works OK until you have less than perfect weather and you have a hard time handling the additional windage. Consider all this before you max out you class 3 options.

    Do I recommend this much sail in class 3? NO! But you are the expert in your own boat.

    I am done modifying the rules for this go around. The new boat class rules can be found under the Read This menu item. I think there is plenty of latitude for boat innovation. Just remember that compliance with the rules does not guarantee your safety. You still have to think and use good judgement. SandyBottom and SOS showed us that you can start late and still do well. Bumpy and MachoMan showed us that you can stop and sitout bad weather and still do well.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. SailBirdMike
    Member

    I should have specified that my ama definitions are from the world of traditional trimarans... they may not apply all that well to kayaks with amas!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. maddave440
    Member

    Hi Chief,

      I would like to try a schooner combination for the Boss ama. I would use a 24 sport  that reefs once down to 20 and a 13 sq foot Batwing that that reef to about 8. The combination will give a sailior many more options than they would have with a single sail. 8 sq feet (13, 20,24,32,31,32,33)to 37 sq feet would be the many combinations that cannot exceed 37. I believe this will improve the safety factor you are looking for. One of the geatest benefits to this combination will be improve up wind performance and speed.

                                                           Maddave  

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. Chief
    Coastal Vagabond

    The schooner rig you speced is fine and fits within the rules.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. maddave440
    Member

    Hi Chief,

     

      Great News.

     

                                 Maddave

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. Feks
    Member

    Good morning,

    Just a quick question on clas 1 kayaks, I manufacture a 1sqr mter rig thats been designd for Water tribe , It dos not requiar a reef, but I put a reef into the design to give flexability . What if a C1 class boat caried a spear sail that is smaler , eathe r.8 or .7 , omly one sail can be yoused at a time , wold this pass scrutinering ? as the largest sail eariar achevabel is still 1metr 

    regards 

    Mick , Flat earth kayak sails

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. DaveOnCudjoe
    Member

    Chief,

      I just read over the modified reefing rules and was surprised to see the requirement that standing sails be doused from the cockpit. I understand the motivation for this rule but it eliminates Sea Pearls and probably most Core Sounds. My Sea Pearl has a redesigned rig and would not meet this criteria. I'm currently again redesigning Maggie's rig at great expense to lower the CG and CE to improve stability and performance and allow my return in 2013. It will not meet this requirement. My personal preferance is not to lead lines to the cockpit but to keep the deck clear and tidy so that I can move quickly and safely to the mast where all lines can be adjusted from one spot. Why require dousing from the cockpit but not reefing? My argument holds for both.  Dave

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. Merman
    Member

    I didn't read all these posts, but most of them. I think this is getting a lot of attention because it is important. It goes to the core of what is an EXPERT- and the truth that many Tribers aren't really EXPERTS the first time or two they go out- maybe they are/were great at dinghy sailing, kayak camping, whatever but NOT at this kind of racing.

    My concern is we have EXPERTS like Roo and Sew Sew and others who should be part of making the rules for these class boats- maybe they are- and if so, I think there would be less feedback, less emotion from those who've "been there, done that" without reefs in mizzens and with spinnakers, etc.

    I just bought a new set of sails for mermaid (CS17) just for the NCC, after spending a lot to change her 2 years ago from sleeved luffs to a track system, and now I have to have reef points in the reaching sail that simply not designed to use in that kind of wind- it will be stowed well before any kind of blow- in short, I don't at this point even know what else I'll have to do to the boat/sails and that concerns me- this seemingly moving target (although you say the rules didn't really change- perception is reality).

    Chief, Do you think having the sailors pick some experts to represent their interests would give you some cover and end up w/ a good rule that all could live w/? I think it might.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. Wyvern
    Member

    Regarding reefing from the cockpit:

    The way that I read the rule so long as you are not perched on the fore deck, or hanging from bowsprit, you should ok. I would think that whole area on a pearl under the sails is the cockpit and likewise on the cs boats

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. Karank
    Member

    Chief,  

    Send whatever you think should be the rule to the Watertribe Wizard before it goes into the book.  He is after all, the Wizard….  He understands all things sailboat and you understand all things Watertribe.

    Karank 

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. ThisTripIsNecessary
    Member

    ...My concern is we have EXPERTS like Roo and Sew Sew and others who should be part of making the rules for these class boats- maybe they are- and if so, I think there would be less feedback, less emotion from those who've "been there, done that" without reefs in mizzens and with spinnakers, etc....

     --- Maybe, but the result could be that 15 people are qualified to do the EC.  The equipment list, travel problems, growing inspections, and deadline to CP1 are already pretty stern "filters."  The number of people who did not even leave the beach or aborted before CP1 seems to indicate a reasonable level of decision making, at least this year. 

    But does Watertribe have a specific definition of "expert" so that we are not talking past one another? All discussuions should start with definitions (I might as well get in with a rule :-)  Would an NCC prequalifier for an EC be an adequate test of expertness? -- Wade

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. Redbeard
    Member

    Something missing from this discussion (that weighs heavily on the difference between beach cats, monohulls, and sail-rigged kayaks) is that blow-over tendencies have more to do with the vessel's heeling / righting moment characteristics than sail area. I think taking this relationship into account could simplify the reefing rules and allow them to be common between boat classes. I apologize in advance because this post turned into a bit of an essay. Whether or not the rules can be changed to heeling moment reduction vs sail area reduction doesn't really matter to me, but the prudent sailor should recognize the difference between them.

    Yes, heeling moment does depend total sail area (currently governed by the rules) but also sail aspect-ratio (height / length) and vertical offset of the sail CE from the waterline. Given two sails of the same area, the taller skinnier sail will produce more heeling moment. A sail that is displaced vertically (to allow the boom to clear the crew, for instance) will produce more heeling moment than one that starts lower. Unstayed schooner and cat-ketch rigs typically have lower heeling moments than single-masted rigs of the same sail area. Other sources of lift and drag (even bare masts and stays) create heeling moments that can be significant if the wind is high enough. Symmetric spinnakers flown downwind create pitching moments (not heeling moments) so aren't usually of concern. Asymmetric spinnakers (like those flown by beach cats) do create heeling moments. Finally, heeling moments generally scale with wind speed squared.

    Righting moment is increased by adding ama buoyancy (for multis and outriggers), beam width, vertical distribution of hull weight (e.g., keel weight), and crew weight. Watertribe entries are typically shallow bottomed and unballasted, with Matt Layden's Enigma as a notable exception. Ama buoyancy and beam width can be assumed fixed (although I think a trimaran design which could shift the amas to vary the leeward / windward distribution of buoyancy would be pretty cool). Crew weight shift (hiking) might not be an option depending on the boat design, weather conditions, etc. Consider that (especially in high winds when damage might occur) the crew needs to be able to safely move around the boat to make repairs, access gear, etc. Hydrodynamic devices like foils on the outriggers could increase righting moment, but for safety purposes we should assume the boat is not moving so the foils aren't contributing. A conservative estimate of righting moment would be taken with the boat fully loaded and the crew sheltered in cockpits (if appropriate). The final point here is that in general, righting moments aren't affected by wind speed. 

    OK so my point is that we have two terms, one that scales with wind speed squared, and one that doesn't. Reefing measures should be provided to maintain an appropriate balance between them. For boat stability, the available righting moment must always exceed the possible heeling moment (based on the current wind conditions). The details depend on the boat configuration, but I think it would be possible to define a generic righting moment to heeling moment factor that must be able to be maintained at all times. This would allow more flexibility in boat / rig designs to meet safety requirements. 

    For example let's consider three typical Watertribe race wind speeds: 10kts (not enough wind), 20kts (too much wind), and 30kts (way too much wind - blammo). Taking the square of each we get 100, 400, and 900 or in ratio terms, 1,4, and 9. Let's say we have a beach cat with a high aspect ratio rig which is designed to fly a hull in 10kts of wind. We could say it is designed to operate at the '1' point. At this wind speed, the cat has no more available righting moment (the crew is already out on trapeze). So the righting moment and heeling moment are matched at 10kts. If the wind increased to 20kts, the heeling moment would go up by four. To keep the boat balanced, the heeling moment would need to be reduced to 25%. Depending on how the sail is reefed, this might be by reducing sail area, height, or both. If the wind increases to 30kts, the cat will need 9X reduction in heeling moment over the baseline 10kt configuration - the sail will probably need to come down. This raises questions about how the team will maintain course and safety with no sails up, but that's another discussion. Now let's compare to a more conservative, underpowered boat that was purpose-designed for an expedition event. It is designed to sail at 20kts (the '4' point) with the sail rig reefed to 50% effective heeling moment. At 10kts, the available righting moment will greatly exceed the max heeling moment - with the sail fully unfurled, the boat will still have twice the necessary righting moment (just 2x more sail with 4x less heeling moment). From the 20kt / 50% reef point, to 30kts, the sail will just need to be taken in about 2.25x (900/400), so we are down to about 23% sail unfurled. However, with this configuration the boat should still be able to make progress on course. Of course, at lower wind speeds, the undersized sail may limit performance, so this design could fly an additional sail (mizzen, headsail, spinnaker, etc) equivalent to 100% of the effective heeling moment of the original rig when the winds are below 10kts.

    I know these are fictional examples but I think they show the difference in safety margin between a typical beach cat and a design suitable for a Watertribe race. At a minimum, the reefing rules should require a  percent reduction in effective heeling moment rather than just sail area so that the change in vertical CE is accomodated. Maximum righting moment should also be considered - the entrant should be encouraged to choose a hull design (esp. ama buoyancy and outrigger crossbeam length) that maximizes stability. The burden of computation should be left to the entrant rather than the WaterTribe. As a starting point for discussion, the rule could be written something like this: "The maximum righting moment of the vessel (not counting hydrodynamic devices such as foils or unsheltered crew weight displacement) must exceed the heeling moment from the sailing rig at a wind speed of 30kts. When reefing or sail changes (including fully dropping a single sail) are required to satisfy this requirement, the entrant must show the rig can be configured to meet this requirement at wind speeds of 10, 20, and 30kts. If discrete reef points are used to meet this requirement, at least two reef points must be installed and they should be placed such that sequential reef points provide a reduction in effective heeling moment of at least 50%  the previous setting. The wind speed at which all sails must be completely furled for safe operation of the boat must not be less than 20kts. When unusual or marginal reefing or righting measures are employed (as determined by the WaterTribe), video demonstration of the technique may be required to avoid disqualification." 

    Sail heeling moment (usually measured in foot-pounds) can be estimated from plans or by using an online calculator like this one: http://www.wb-sails.fi/news/SailPowerCalc/SailPowerCalc.htm. The maximum righting moment of a boat can be more easily determined (here I'm listing the conservative estimate, you might also want to know the effect of crew hiking out, but I don't think that should be included in any safety assessment):

    • For outriggers and kayaks (assumed boat rotates around main hull, no hiking) - If known, multiply buoyancy of ama times distance from centerline to ama. Or just test it - measure weight on ama required to cause capsize (or uncomfortable heel) and multiply by distance to centerline. If crew weight can be shifted without leaving cockpit, include weight times distance from centerline.
    • For catamarans (assumed boat rotates around leeward hull): weigh one hull with the other hull on the ground. Multiply by distance to other hull. Add crew weight times distance from hull to centerline or for cats with port / starboard cockpits, add each crew separately.
    • For monohulls: by analysing hull shape / weight distribution (including ballast) or measured by same capsize test above - just use a board hooked across the gunwales and add weight at the end of the board until capsize imminent and multiply by distance to centerline. Include crew weight times distance from centerline if appropriate.

    RedBeard aka Matt Hazard

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. DaveOnCudjoe
    Member

    Merman, Can you douse your main without going on deck?

    Wyvern, The cockpit is where the tiller is and where the sheets lead. Sea Pearls are somewhat unique in that they have a forward cockpit which can be covered with a tent to form a separate cabin, it begins over 2 ft aft of the main mast. I keep that space covered while underway.The cockpit is aft of the mizzen mast. Handling the main requires going on deck. Leading the halyard and a downhaul from the headboard to the cockpit is foolishness.

    Redbeard, None of the inspectors are Naval Architects and shouldn't need to be. Reefing points can be installed to reduce area by a percentage which can be verified by eyeball. Prudent sailors know when to reef but competition fosters poor seamanship.

    The problem is dousing from the cockpit. That means the halyard must lead to the cockpit which means to reef you must move back and forth between the halyard and the gooseneck. These boats are simply too small to lead the halyard,reefing lines and downhaul to the cockpit.  Dave

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. danceswithmullet
    Member

    Dave and anyone else reading this

    I know the rules may sound constrictive, but if you sail your boat in other than daysailing conditions the boat needs to be able to survive conditions way beyond what you have been comfortable sailing in. The reefing rule is actually leinient. Old mullets main is basically cut in half and in the three EFC races I have started and finished in I have used the main lone in the deep reef for a portion of the race. The funny thing is when the wind is screaming and you think the hankerchief you have up for sail area won't do much good the GPS will reveal you are able to make windward progress. This is the most important function for reefing because it means you can make your way to safety without asking for outside help. For the folks measuring out the lever action and velocity of the wind, I comend you, you are way smarter than I. If you spend time in your boat in crappy conditions you will realize the calculator may steer you wrong. Rig your boat and sail it in crap weather, the weaknesses will show themselves immediatley and work from there.DWM

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. BustedRudder
    Member

    I participated in several Farallones races off San Francisco both single handed and doublehanded having a great time before this one in 1982. We started the day with our racing main that had 2 shallow reef points. We changed the genoa to a storm jib (a harrowing process in itself). It was too crappy to consider a mainsail change to the working main with deeper reefs. The boat was way overpowered at the second racing reef. We abandoned the race 16 miles offshore in our 22' Sanatana, an insanely small boat for Northern CA ocean but we were young and imortal then. People died. It changed my perspective on being prepared for worst case. 

    Chief is trying to keep Darwins theory out of Watertribe events. It seems a thankless job. The people best prepared are actively engaged in the debate. The rules will at least ensure the uninitiated have the basic tools to stay out of trouble if they understand how to use them.

    If interested, a forensic review of things going wrong under sail:

    http://www.nwas.org/digest/papers/1993/Vol18-Issue1-Feb1993/Pg2-Duckworth.pdf

     

     

     

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. ThisTripIsNecessary
    Member

    BustedRudder wrote:

    ...If interested, a forensic review of things going wrong under sail:

    http://www.nwas.org/digest/papers/1993/Vol18-Issue1-Feb1993/Pg2-Duckworth.pdf

     --- I did try, but that file locked my computer up twice for some reason. -- Wade

    Posted 1 year ago #

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