Chief wrote:
The problems I observed during the launch of EC2012 could of and should have been caught at inspection. I will be speaking with the inspector about this.
I think this is going to be me
Reefing Rule
(147 posts) (38 voices)-
MicroTom
Key MasterPosted 1 year ago # -
Danito
MemberDanito- class 3 kruger sea wind with Balogh 36 sport with 2 reefs. I also carried a PA sail. On the start I left the beach double reefed. When the conditions got worse and I did not make any progress I returned to FT. De Soto waited until the following day until the conditions improved and relaunched again with only amas and paddle on hand. Once safely across Tampa bay I raised my PA sail and used it most of the day on and off. The following day (monday) I then used my BSD 36 still double reefed with PA. I continued with this set up until I dropped near the Sanibel Bridge Tuesday afternoon.
Videos- My videos are posted in the video gallery section. Nothing great just the footage just as it was shot. no editing.
Chief wrote:
Also, I would like to ask current WaterTribers in class 3, 4, and 5 to post some videos and stories on how and when to reef. We can all make this a priority so that new WaterTribers in these classes can pickup on the serious need to perhaps change their sailing habits for an expedition-style adventure race.
I still think I made all the right choices for me and my abilities.
To the new class 3's out there paddle paddle sail.
Danny
Posted 1 year ago # -
Chief wrote:
Also, I would like to ask current WaterTribers in class 3, 4, and 5 to post some videos and stories on how and when to reef. We can all make this a priority so that new WaterTribers in these classes can pickup on the serious need to perhaps change their sailing habits for an expedition-style adventure race.
In these conditions, you should reef:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0qbyRWSptg
Seriously though... we left the beach with our Balogh 5M sail double reefed, although a single reef may have been enough. The double stayed in all of Saturday. We sailed through the front on Sunday morning double reefed and kept it that way all day except for a little while in Venice canal. Once out of the canal the 2nd reef went back in. Monday and Tuesday were spent in varying conditions where we varied between no reefs, single and double. After CP2, the rig was stowed away and the paddles came out.
Check out my videos (mostly the first two) to see the sort of conditions we sailed in.
The Balogh zipper reefing system is super easy to use and was much appreciated.
Macatawa
Posted 1 year ago # -
CrazyRussian
MemberZeroTheHero. Just installing two reefs on a sail of Hobie 17 will do no good. In real life situation such as EC reefing Hobie 17 sail by releasing halyard, cleating it and adjusting clew and tack lines, can do more harm than good. Head of the sail is supported by the hook on beach cats, there is no loads on masthead block and sailtrack. Top of the mast on Hobie made out of fiberglass. Sailtrack is not strong enough. If you just release the halyard and cleat it, top of the sail may pull out of the sailtrack. You may get a sail permanently jammed in the track on a top. I don't know how Tornado and Mosquito teams solve the problem, but, most likely they have second and third hooks installed on a mast for each reef.
Posted 1 year ago # -
DonKeyHoTey
MemberI am coming to this party very late -- perhaps too late. However, I would first like to state that I am in absolute agreement with Chief and others here about the need for adequate and proven capability of shortening sail to match conditions, circumstances, etc., and I was impressed by the thoughtful proposals of my fellow Tribesmen. The value of appropriate reefing capability was obvious to me and probably every other Challenger out there this year -- or last -- or the year before. I would encourage everyone with unused reefing hardware to become very familiar with it. Not just to avoid potential DQ, but to avoid potential disaster. Be able to do it in the dark, and solo to boot, even if the plan is to race two-up. You never know when it might come in handy...
Chief, there is one slight further amendment of the reefing rule that might be considered, to ensure adequate reefing capability yet provide adequate sail for safe navigation. I believe the rule speaks of two reefs approximately 1/3 and 2/3 of the way up the luff, respectively. Instead, I would suggest that it be something like 1/3 and 2/3 of the sail area. The reason for fractions of area rather than fractions of luff length is that the real-world effect will be very different from one sail type to another. For instance, 1/3 and 2/3 of luff length on Slider's slightly peaked sprit rig will result in a second-reef sail area reduction of roughly 50%. For a balance-lug rig like either Oaracle's or that on Leatherlung's CLC dory, it might equate to as little as 40% reduction only, because the throat (the top of the luff) is perhaps only about 2/3 of the way up to the sail's peak. On a minimal-roach bermudan sail like the main on Hare-on-Fire, a second reef 2/3 up the luff removes approximately 8/9 of full sail area -- an 89% reduction. I could not see being able to punch through the surf off Ft Desoto Park close-hauled with that amount of sail. So that reef becomes essentially useless.
VR,
DKHT
Posted 1 year ago # -
ZeroTheHero
Membercrazyrussian, I'm on it. I have been over and over the mast issue. I have already pulled the track and have purchased the aluminumn "fix"section of track. Ultimately I would love to get a new carbon mast and save some weight but I don't think I can afford that, nor do I think I will find a suitable donor mast. If that doesn't work I may go with the multiple hook system but I would rather not as I think that will rip the sail. Another issue with a new mast might be over compresing the mast and bending the front crossbeam. The Hobie 18 did not have multiple hooks they used a 2:1 halyard. My comment on the lines rigged in the sail was just something else. my original plan had been to unclip the downhaul and use that as the forward line, and use the outhaul as the aft line. But after this discussion I have changed my mind. I need a simpler more robust system that can be put in and out quickly. What ever I do it will be tested many times before hand. I won't show up on the beach if I don't have it figured out. What ever I do it will work.
<- This makes no sense but my daughter wanted me to put it there!Posted 1 year ago # -
CrazyRussian had some very good input on reefing considerations for some of the beach cats. The rules do not attempt to tell anyone how to accomplish a safe and efficient reefing system that is adequate for the conditions we face. I do know that one reef will not always be enough. Two reefs will usually be enough. If two reefs aren't enough, you should be in a sheltered cove at anchor or have all sail down and riding to a sea anchor or whatever your boat requires to ride out a storm.
DonKeyHoTey also made some valuable and correct observations. But trying to arrive at exact percentages of sail reduction is what led to some sailmakers misinterpreting the previous reefing rules. The current rules are guides that may have to be adjusted for individual sail types. But the end result will be two usable reefs in the sail. When I inspect these boats, I am not going to get out a tape measure. I'm going to visually look at the standing sails and verify that two usable reefs are present and that the captain and crew know how to set and shake out the reefs. Any sailmaker with questions is welcome to contact me.
If there are rigging issues that prevent two reefs that are safe and efficient for your boat, then your boat is not adequate for the challenge.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Ridgerunner
MemberChief wrote:
. The rules do not attempt to tell anyone how to accomplish a safe and efficient reefing system that is adequate for the conditions we face.
With all this attention o beach cats, I don't think that we got feedback on the standard sloop rig. Roller furling is one way to shorten sail, but it is fraught with dependence on an often fluky mechanical system, and it affects the shape of the jib. A hank-on jib with a downhaul ilne led to the cockpit allows you to douse the chole thinf effectively until you are able to make other corrections.
I would like to suggest this again as an approved option.
Posted 1 year ago # -
That has already been done. The current update is located in the Boat Classes page at http://watertribe.org/boat-classes/
Posted 1 year ago # -
For those considering roller furling, there are two ways to install it. One is as a modification of your forestay, which means you will have a swivel on each end of the stay, and your sail will be permanently wrapped around part of your standing rigging as long as the mast is up. The second way is to have the sail on a wire luff, hoisted behind the forestay, and then tensioned with your halyard to the point where the jib is taking at least an equal load to the forestay. This allows for adequate luff tension.
Both systems are considered acceptable practice, but I'd only use the second, as it provides for redundancy in case of forestay or halyard breakage, and it allows you to completely remove the sail without lowering the rig.
One thing to watch, however, is that you can sometimes, on a small craft, end up with enough slack in the forestay that it will get wrapped up in the sail as you attempt to furl it. Practice will make this easily avoidable if your boat shows any propensity towards interference.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Question: I have a cat-ketch, as a few others do. My mizzen is 20 square feet. I like to leave the whole thing up with a reefed or smaller mainsail raised. Will the reefing rule appy to small mizzens? -- Wade
Posted 1 year ago # -
If it is neccessary to have reefing points on the sail, as the current rule seems to be 12 sq. ft. with no reef, consider a vertical batten parallel to the luff with a simple brailing line to reef it down to 10-12 sq. ft.
Disclaimer: Check with Chief to see if one reef would be acceptable if it brought the sail size down to the minimum reef-free footage (wow, there was some serious danger of both rhyme AND alliteration there for a moment).
Posted 1 year ago # -
Reefing sails on rollers, or led by lines,
provides so precious safety for the times
when awful craft advisories crash the shores
with weather and the waves creating lore
of Watertribish challenges that chew the boats
and mash the men and women, wrench and soak
them all entirely; each event so evidentially (....yuck)
done by lack of deepset reefs; so miserly
attention to all details
will disqualify the fool who fails
to subdue illegal yards of sails.
(I saw an Everglades challenge :-) -- Wade
Posted 1 year ago # -
I got a nice chuckle on that one :) Very fitting for the Challenge and the thread.
The reefing rule regarding 2 reefs in small mizzen sails was inspired by one of our EC2012 finishers who told me he had 3 reef points in his relatively small mizzen. And he had used all three. Usually the last one was for riding out a storm with extreme winds. So requiring two in all standing sails seemed very reasonable to me.
Later he asked do I have to reef my small mizzen? Go figure. Perhaps I misunderstood his first story.
The other part of the rule that lets small sails up to 12 sqft pass is really considering class 1. One square meter is about 10.76 sqft. Since most existing class 1 sails don't have any reefs but are easy to douse, it seemed like giving sails 12 sqft and under a pass on reefing was OK.
So OK. Any sail less than or equal to 12 sqft can have no reefs or as many as you feel are necessary for safe and efficient coastal and open water passages in any weather. Sails greater than 12 sqft can have as many reefs as necessary until the remaining sqft of sail is less than or equal to 12 sqft. but more than two reefs is up to the captain and the sailmaker.
For example, if you have a 24 sqft sail. Only one reef would be required to get the remaining sail less than or equal to 12 sqft. I'd have two zippy reefs in a 24 footer, but I am a prudent sailor not an aggressive sailor.
Another example would be a 178 sqft sail. Two reefs might give you 100 sqft with the first reef in and 35 sqft with both reefs in. A third reef could get you down to 12 sqft, but do you need to go that small? Of course three reefs might allow more fine tuning with small reductions at each step. But three reefs get difficult to rig. That would be up to you and your sailmaker. Obviously those numbers are just made up.
But let's say I have a very creative sailor who likes to poke me in the eye. He's got a 178 sqft mainsail. He puts in only one reef near the top of his sail that then leaves 12 sqft. That will be a very creative way to lose his entrants fee and waste everyone's time.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I'm going to make the rule a bit simpler and grandfather in some class 3 sails. It will be added to the Read This - Boat Classes section in the next couple hours and look something like the following:
Reef points for standing sails less than or equal to 12 sqft are recommended but not required.
At least one reef point is required for standing sails less than or equal to 36 sqft. Having two reef points is highly recommended for these sails.
At least two reef points are required for any standing sail greater than 36 sqft.
Instead of reef points any standing sail can use roller reefing.
All standing sails must have a dousing and retrieving system that can be safely and efficiently operated from the cockpit or main trampoline.
Headsails may use roller furling, roller reefing, or dousing and retrieval systems that can be safely and efficiently operated from the cockpit or main trampoline.
Posted 1 year ago # -
lugnut
MemberChief wrote:
The reefing rule regarding 2 reefs in small mizzen sails was inspired by one of our EC2012 finishers who told me he had 3 reef points in his relatively small mizzen. And he had used all three. Usually the last one was for riding out a storm with extreme winds. So requiring two in all standing sails seemed very reasonable to me.
Later he asked do I have to reef my small mizzen? Go figure. Perhaps I misunderstood his first story.
That's gotta be me, Chief, and yes there had to be a misunderstanding somewhere. I have three reefs in Oaracle's main and none in the tiny mizzen, which is only 12 or 13 square feet (just barely bigger than the Class 1 downwind sails). Holding up a hanky would be about the equivalent of three reefs in the mizzen. And a lot easier to do! Seriously, if there's too much wind for Oaracle's mizzen, reefing it isn't going to help, and I don't think reefing a sail 20 square feet or smaller is particularly practical.
We did use all three reefs in the main (double reefed was what we used most) and once ran along under the mizzen only.
Lugnut
Posted 1 year ago # -
mistermoon
MemberAnother example would be a 178 sqft sail. Two reefs might give you 100 sqft with the first reef in and 35 sqft with both reefs in. A third reef could get you down to 12 sqft, but do you need to go that small? Of course three reefs might allow more fine tuning with small reductions at each step. But three reefs get difficult to rig. That would be up to you and your sailmaker. Obviously those numbers are just made up.
A boat that has the power to carry a 178 sqft sail would never reef down to 12 sqft. The power to carry sail is function of righting moment which in turn is an derived from shape of the hull, the total displacement of the hull, and the relationship between center of mass of the boat and the center of effort of the sail area. A boat with that kind of sail carrying power is going to need more "oomph" from its sails than a lighter boat, therefore it can and will carry more sail at a given windspeed than a lighter, less powerful hull.
Let's look at a hypothetical 180 sqft triangular sail with a luff of 30' and a foot of 12'. To make it simple, let's assume no roach and that the angle between the luff and the foot are exactly 90 degrees. Some simple trigonometry now allows us to calculate sail areas at varying luff lengths.
If we put in a first reef at 4' above the foot (L=26'); the sail area is now 135 sqft, a reduction of 25%.
The second reef is 5' higher on the luff (L=21') and now we are at 88 sqft, a reduction of 51%.
A third reef is another 5' higher on the luff (L=16'); The sail area is now only 51 sqft for a reduction of 72%.
These are pretty aggressive reefs; a real sailmaker might suggest something less aggressive depending on the boat.
It's also important to note that as the sail is reefed the center of effort gets lower, significantly reducing the length of the lever arm that gives the heeling force.
A boat that has the power to carry a 180 sqft sail under normal conditions, say 15 kts or less, should be able to carry on pretty well in higher winds up to 30 knots or so with two reefs and three reefs for anything over. However, once you get over 30 knots sustained, it's probably best to find a hidey hole somewhere and wait for better conditions.
I need to calculate the reefed SA of my boat. My guess is the second reef puts me at about a 50% reduction. However, I know that my boat is quite comfortable beating in sustained 25 kts with higher gusts with two reefs. If it got much stronger than that, I have the option of dropping one sail entirely.
(FWIW, I routinely sail unreefed up to about 18 knot or so when daysailing. My boat is a little underpowered in light airs.)
Posted 1 year ago # -
A good study of reefing in small unballasted boats can be found by studying sailplans at http://www.drascombe.org.uk/ The Drascombe designs are pretty much WaterTribe ready, and have been plying the coasts of England and Europe for decades. None of their mizzens reef.
The important thing here is that Chief is emphasizing safety, and that Chief is carefully studying the input given to him. I have no doubt that the final ruling will be a good one. In the meantime, those of us with experience have a bit of a duty to set good, seamanlike examples to those who are paying attention to what we do. There aren't too many small boat voyagers left, and we are they. Pass on what we know so that new entries to the voyaging ranks can benefit from our knowledge and our wisdom.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Karank
MemberChief,
Just an exercise to demonstrate some very good alternatives that comply with your intent.
If I had a boat (call it Laguna) with three sails that were exactly alike. I could reduce sail by 1/3 by dousing the middle sail and still have a balanced sail plan. Or by 2/3’s by dowsing the fore and aft sails. The boat is sailing with effectively a double reef with "no" reef points, at all. (I would additionally have a couple of reef points in the middle sail).
The advantage is that the skipper could effectively “double reef” very quickly and safely…in less than a minute. And still have a perfect set sail without the additional windage of a boom full of reefs.
May I suggest that you make a rule that describes “results” rather than method of that reduction… That will not hamstring the innovative among us.
Run this up the flag pole….
The skipper of a boat with sails must demonstrate to the inspector the method of reduction of sails in appx. 1/3 increments down to, no more than, x% of the basic sail plan. Keep the objective clear. You might add that each reduction must be accomplished from within the cockpit or safely by the crew.
Karank
Posted 1 year ago # -
No I can't describe results because we tried that and got mixed results. First, I really don't want a boat with three standing sails. Somehow that does not seem like a small boat to me. Most small boats are going to have one or two sails. Taking down one sail no matter how many masts are in the boat does reduce sail area of course. But it doesn't meet my needs as a race manager.
Remember that these rules are only in here because I have to have some order amidst the chaoes of the wide range of boats. Any rule I write will never be perfect.
Posted 1 year ago # -
DaveOnCudjoe
MemberThere is an awful lot of talk about reefing and dousing sail from the cockpit. In my not too limited experience in a wide variety of boats I find this practice quite over rated. Nothing is simpler than going to a mast and having everything right there. Lines for roller furling jibs are one thing, and they are bad enough, but anything else will foul and always at the worse moment. Jib downhauls can be led to the mast where the halyard is cleated. If a spagetti farm led to a cockpit is your cup of tea that's fine but I hope the wording of the rules does not force one in that direction. Dave
Posted 1 year ago # -
DonKeyHoTey
MemberChief, I understand your dilemma. However, I must say that I strongly second Mistermoon's and Karanks comments and suggestions above. The ability to safely and adequately shorten sail is essential; HOW we maintain seaworthiness and navigability will very much depend on the boat, its rig, the crew, the point of sail, etc etc.
It's the product (safety), and not the process, that is essential here. We sailors are in the business of tricking the wind to take us where we want/need to go, and if our vessel that has too LITTLE sail for its scantlings and the conditions, we can no longer perform this trick, nor, perhaps, even safely navigate at all. Unlike an auxiliary yacht, Watertribers do not have the option of striking all sail and continuing under motor.
From a safety perspective, an ideal boat for the EC would have multiple short, unstayed masts that are easily stepped/unstepped (Placida bridge....) and fit within the boat -- better enabling the human propulsion that is an important part of Watertribe Challenges and a key safe-navigation mode. These "split rigs" with two independent rigs are extremely popular in traditional open boats because they provide rigging flexibility and ease of shortening or dousing sail. They are also an "insurance policy" in the event of one rig's failure (especially with a middle mast-step like Ridgerunner's, as he demonstrated this year). Even under full sail, CE on these boats is already quite low due to the low-aspect sailplan. If the mizzen is small enough, there is no practical need for it to be "reef-able", and indeed "conventional" slab reefing is quite impractical, because it may likely have no halyard. While split rigs are not the fastest boats on the beach in Ft. Desoto, these are the types of boats that have won Class IV in recent years -- because they are really the most suitable for expedition-style sailing and extreme conditions.
Even single-sail boats may have unique sail reduction strategies that are highly effective and proven -- but would not fit within the rule as currently worded. For instance, one of the most popular rigs among traditional fishermen worldwide, the single sprits'l (peaked), often has no halyard and no reefing points at all, because it can quickly and easily be either brailed or scandalized while stepped, or it can be unstepped. K-I-S-S! These are key reasons why it is so widely used -- in places where there is no USCG coming to the rescue. Scandalizing a sprits'l typically reduces its area by about 50% -- and brings the CE very low in the sail. By way of example, an Optimist dinghy's +/- 36sf peaked sprits'l (no halyard), with a 5' 8" luff, would require either one or two sets of reefing points under the proposed rule. Alternatively, scandalizing it (an Opti sailor's standard reefing method), would reduce it to less than 20sf. Wouldn't that more effectively meet the "reefing" objective?
Respectfully
DKHT
Posted 1 year ago # -
OK Etch, here's my possible solution...
Sail area of all single sailed craft must be able to be reduced to 60% or less of original sail area, safely, and done from within the confines of the normally occupied area of the craft. Sails of 1.25 sq. meters or less are exempted from being required to have reefing ability, provided they can be set and struck safely in all conditions.
Sail area of all multi-sailed craft (2 or more sails) must be able to reduce sail area to 50% or less of original sail area, safely, and done from within the confines of the normally occupied area of the craft. Sails of 1.25 sq. meters or less are exempted from being required to have reefing ability, provided they can be set and struck safely in all conditions.
Brailing, scandalizing, slab reefing, roller reefing, and roller furling are all acceptable methods of reducing area, as all have been proven in tens to hundreds of years of small boating. Additionally, in the spirit of innovation, WaterTribe will allow new systems to be introduced. However, a demonstration of any reefing system shall be required for all new competitors, and WaterTribe management may ask for a demonstration of any reefing equipment at any time. This can be a dry land demonstration unless specifically requested by WaterTribe officials.
Gosh, this thread is fun!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Karank
MemberI have gone back over the posts by Chief to better understand how I could summarize his concerns.
I am down shifting here or even putting the disscusion in reverse.
We are looking at “the problem” from our narrow individual boat’s point of view. He is looking at it from the Organizers’ point of view. He feels responsible, in some way, for each person in the Challenge and must satisfy the authorities and insurers and most of all his conscience that he is doing the best that he can.
Words will not and cannot solve the problem. Improving, seaworthiness, can only be an approach that combines the Words with the Inspection. Nothing will ever “solve” the problem….because the judgment, experience, knowledge of the skipper is the problem and the only dependable answer. It can only be minimized by (1) Words and the (2) Inspection.
The Words need to state the problem clearly and the ways that it can be accomplished.
The inspection needs to be compressive rather than cursory in the more basic critical areas. Each thing can be very important but we must concentrate on the likely problem areas.
Knowing myself, may I suggest that teams of two do the inspections. Rather than let a couple of duty driven responsible tribe’rs do all the inspections….set up teams of two, during sign up, that will take a one hour shift +-. That will spread out the duty and formalize the responsibility and make a much smoother procedure. Have the inspection team on duty have a dunce cap, or green jacket, or better yet a swastika arm band. Perhaps two teams of two….one for paddle craft and the other for sail craft. There is a significant difference in needs and necessities, and knowledge.
(All) The above is brainstorming, not even a suggestion…just my 2 centavos.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I do plan to more formalize the inspection process for first timers. We will continue to let repeat offenders inspect themselves, but I will be watching the launch like a hawk.
Posted 1 year ago #
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