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Reefing Rule

(147 posts) (38 voices)
  • Started 1 year ago by Chief
  • Latest reply from KiwiBird

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  • BSD 38 Class 3 PAS
  • expodition kayaks
  • fast sea kayaks
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  • Reef
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  1. Chief
    Coastal Vagabond

    After each event I review the rules and modify them to close loopholes or improve safety. Some of you can look forward to the new rules which will be published soon. I have eliminated a lot of redundancy and simplified them. The result is a much shorter set of rules.

    One big change has to do with reefing. I am giving a heads up for two reasons. First, I want to get input before I make it official. Second, I want to give advance warning in case any of you are buying new sails or modifying existing sails.

    Here is a draft of the new reefing rule:

    Reefing Rule for ALL Class 3, 4, and 5 Boats: All sailing classes must have a safe and efficient reefing system for all sails. You must know how to use your reefing system and it must be fully rigged and ready to go before you launch.  If there is a small craft advisory at the time of launch and you don't have a reef or two in your sails, you will be immediately DQed. 

    All main sails and mizzen sails up to and including 135 square feet must have 100% roller reefing or at least two reef points that are roughly spaced equally along the luff. The sail maker has some latitude on exact placement of reef points considering battens and such. Main  or mizzen sails larger than 135 square feet need special approval and usually such approval will not be given because these events are for small boats. 

    All head sails must have 100% roller reefing and they must be controlled without leaving the cockpit. 

    Racing spinnakers are not allowed. Cruising spinnakers and screechers are allowed keeping in mind the roller reefing requirement for all head sails. 

    All class 3, 4, and 5 WaterTribers must have "Reef Early and Reef Often" tattooed on their forehead. (Just kidding, but you get the idea.) 

    The big thing to note is that ALL main and mizzen sails must have at least two reef points. This includes BSD or similar sails. It does not include class 1 sails.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. LeatherLungs
    Member

    I'll chime in here!

    I was almost granted a 2nd Reef waiver for for my 64sf Lug sail before entering bthis year's EC. I gave some compelling reasons, but was (thankfully) denied.

    My mind-set was based on previous experience, which does not include a previous WT event.

    The 2nd reef was in my sail for most of Days 2 & 3. Suffered a little up-wind, but was flying down-wind, and under control. Had the waiver been granted, I don't believe I would've finished.

    I promised Chief I would admit this publicly on the forum, so here it is!

    LL

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. KiwiBird
    Member

    I'll more than likely be sticking with my kayak for future ECs, or perhaps a tandem sometime, but IF (and 'if' being the operative word) I had been able to continue on Day 2, I probably would have been grateful for the two reefing points in the new FESail. Those reduce the sail down to around 800.

    Chief, this is purely musing; not suggesting a rule change!

    KB

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. LeatherLungs
    Member

    Correction:

    Reef #2 was in for most of Days 1 & 2; strong winds from 2 opposite directions.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. mistermoon
    Member

    I'd suggest a couple of modifications:

    Mizzen sails -- On some boats, the mizzen only comprises a very small portion of the total sail area, e.g. Lugnut's Oaracle. In practice sails these small are not reefed, only doused. It's kind of silly to have two reef points on a 15-20  sq ft. mizzen.  I'd recommend a maximum size before a mizzen needs to have reefing. Let me propose a maximum sail area of 25 sq. feet for no reefs, maximum of 40 sq feet for a single reef, and anything over 40 sq feet needs two reefs.

    Headsails (jibs and genoas) -- Roller reefing isn't necessary to be able to douse the sail from inside the boat. It's a simple matter to install a downhaul that will safely and quickly douse the sail underway. Most roller 'reefing' systems on the market for dinghies are not designed for reefing anyway. A more proper way to refer to them is roller furling. They are meant only to be used with the sail fully deployed or fully rolled. They aren't meant to allow the sail to be flown while partially rolled up.  A downhaul is safe, effective, and easily installed on any boat with very little expense.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. CrazyRussian
    Member

    In my opinion, reefing rule should state that entrant in class 3-5 must demonstrate ability to reduce sail area to 65 percent of original on water. That's it.
    No number of reef points, no number or types of sails, no method of reducing sail area should be mandated.

    Chief, your new rule disqualifies almost every beach cat, since they all, except 14 footers, have bigger mainsail.
    Besides, I believe that having an extra storm mainsail on a beach cat is safer alternative than adding reefing points to a sail. if I ever take a racing beach cat, I'd have a small sail with me.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. mistermoon
    Member

    Chief, I'd add that the rules should specify upwind sail area only. Downwind or reaching-only sails do not apply.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. CrazyRussian
    Member

    Chief, can you share some statistics with us? I just trying to understand where this strict ruling is coming from.
    So please, how many rescues we had during all EC challenges? How many of them are of sailboats of all classes? How many are because sailors couldn't sail back to shore? Yes, I know there was plenty of dropouts, but how many situations could lead to lost of life if there was no SAR? And btw, I agree with ShoreBringGator, who always maintained that spot is no substitute to PLB, even he was sponsored by manufacturer.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. Etchemin
    Member

    The 36sq ft Balogh sail only has one reefing point.  So that sail is prohibited?  May need to rethink that one Chief as the 36sqft Balogh sail has been a mainstay of the Kruger fleet and proven time and again over the years.

    Etch

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. Chief
    Coastal Vagabond

    That's true and it should have two reefs.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. Ridgerunner
    Member

    Aul Her haveI don't know about the problems others had, but our knockdown was not because of sail area (we were puttin in a double reef when it occurred and we had sailed double receded in the bug blow Saturday).
    We both moved to the bow to reef the main. This lifted the broad transom out of the water and balanced us on the pointy bow. If one of us had stayed in the stern, the boat would have heeled, rounded up, and continued to be hove to in the new wind.

    I agree with Mr. Moon about roller furling. It is a weak spot in the system. A downhaul line led aft will work as well.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. lugnut
    Member

    I agree with the spirit of the proposed rule, as modified by mistermoon. Oaracle's mizzen is 12 or 13 square feet. It is, essentially, the final reef allowing the main to be dropped in strong winds and still have steerageway for the boat. If I can't carry that sail, reefing it isn't going to help.

    Two reefs for the main is good and a third should be recommended (or a stormsail) if possible. Also, a downhaul for the headsail would be sufficient for the jib in lieu of roller reefing (which can be fickle and fail). At Ridgerunner noted, the goal is to keep weight off the foredeck, which can destabilize some boats.

    Also, including the reefing rule on the pre-race inspection checklist. It's too easy to forget about it.

    We needed all our reefing ability this year. Under sail, we were mostly under double reefed main  and mizzen. On the first half of the second day, we ran under the mizzen alone, averaging 5 knots and sometimes exceeding 6. (With the mainmast down, this meant we didn't have to open any of the 3 drawbridges north of Venice!). We used the triple reefed main twice, the single reef twice and spent only 15-20 percent of our time with the unreefed main. We nearly got flipped once by waves, but because we could control our sail area so well, the wind never came close to knocking us over.

    Lugnut

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. naturecalls
    Member

    Please do not add rules. Let the captain decide what is appropriate. We have sailed our kayak in winds equal to this years event many times. I have broken gear many times. Let the captians experience determine the appropriate sail to use. Sew sew used a bare mast this year off Marco. His past experience was critical, let us all use our own judgement. My two cents. Jim

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. mistermoon
    Member

    I also agree with the spirit of the proposal. I've been thinking about this all morning and would like to make some additional recommendations.

    First, I think class 4 and class 5 need to be treated differently from each other. Multihulls are very different than monohulls in how they perform and respond to different wind conditions and probably need different guidelines. I'll leave it up to the multi sailors to comment on what they think is a good practice. Similarly, I think those with class 3 experience should be making recommendations for their best practices.

    On class 4 sailboats, I believe the number of reef points required should depend on the area of the the specific sail. This does not include sails that are flown free or on a rope or wire stay, those should be dealt with by either requiring roller furling or reefing or a system to douse the sail from the cockpit such as a downhaul.

    For other sails that are attached to a spar of some sort, it makes sense to vary the required number of reef points based on the size of that sail only. THerefore, I'll amend my proposal to this:

    0-25 square feet - no reef points required.

    25-40 square feet - minimum of one reef point

    40-90 square feet - Minimum of two reef points

    Greater than 90 square feet - minimum of three reef points

    Sails larger than 135 square feet will require at least three reef points, but will be considered on a case by case basis.

    This only applys to sails that are attached along at least one edge to a spar and are normally carried upwind. Reaching and running only sails are exempted from this rule. Again, this is for class 4 only. Class 3 and Class 5 sailors need to develop their own guidelines.

    Comments?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. maddave440
    Member

    Hi Etchemin,

      The 36 Expedition has one reef point.

    The 36 HP Sport has 2 reef points. The 36HP Sport was designed for the Watertriber to have more options when it came to sail size. The sail uses an emast and it is shorter than the 38 exp.

    The 1meter, batwing does not have a reef . The 24 and 28 has one reef. I was designing a schooner rig for the Watertribe. Under these rules I would have to use a 32, 36 or 38 for a schooner. These would be the Watertibe options.

     

              Madave

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. Meatloaf
    Member

    

    Don't tell me when to reef, or how to reef ... let me show you.  If I can't drop a reef in less than 3 minutes ... I'm no expert in my boat!  DSQ me!  Furthermore, considering a cat ketch with near equal sail areas ... if the foresail is dropped and the mizzen restepped forward, even with a full mizzen sail, you have a 50% reduction, most single reefs are 25~30%  Is that enough?  A sailboat must have sail to move in a strong breeze. Perhaps we should limit the size of blades on kayak paddles also? For guidance, please refer to the various Yachting rules and regs currently being used, excepting of course Round the world type racers.There are specific requirements for different types of races and racing.  For instance, the GYA (Gulf Yachting Association) requires NO REEFS in the mainsail and only one jib no larger than 110% of the fore Triangle for inshore races, Larger genoas up the max allowed for the specific boat are allowed.  For Coastal races, like the Gulport to Pensacola Race, about 110 miles offshore, only requires a SINGLE REEF, same sized foresail requirement.  For the Trans Gulf Pensacola to Isla Mujeres Race, TWO REEFS are required in the mainsail and at least one jib no larger than 85% of the fore trianlge.  I've done those races many, many times.  I have used a double reef once and the 85% once.  Although it does take us a little longer than 3 minutes to make a headsail change when the breeze is over 30 knots, but thats on a 42' boat.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. Chief
    Coastal Vagabond

    Let's just talk about the main sail for a moment. The rule is you must have at least two reef points no matter what the sail size is. You certainly could have more if you want.

    Using the overall sail size to determine the number of reefs to require is not appropriate. If the main is 36 sqft, 55 sqft or 135 sqft the minimum number of reefs is two. This accomplishes roughly equal reduction in terms of a percentage for each sail. If you assume the main sail size is appropriate for the different boats in normal conditions, then reducing sail by roughly the same percentage accomplishes the goal.

    How to apply the reefs and when to apply them is up to the captain and crew (except at the start). In fact, I should not have to make this rule at all, but much to my surprise there are boats being sold without reefs and crews that have no idea how to reef in a blow. In this event I saw boats where the sail maker had misinterpreted the rules and only had one reef point in a rather large main sail. So I am making the rule more explicit.

    OK, so that is settled. A minimum of two reef points in the main sail no matter what the size of the main.

    On to the mizzen. If that rule makes sense for the main, why would the mizzen be any different? So a minimum of two reefs in the mizzen is required.

    What about a storm sail? Fine, if you want to carry a storm sail go ahead. But changing to a storm sail in a small boat is harder than putting in a reef. If you disagree, then carry the storm sail. But then your main, mizzen and storm sail all have to have two reef points.

    And when I talk about reef points I don't mean just holes with grommets punched into the sail. I mean all necessary rigging installed and ready to go. In fact, I forgot to mention that from now on ALL newbies in the sailing classes have to post a YouTube video that shows them actually under sail and then setting the first reef followed by the second reef before they will get an invoice. If I don't see the video with the crew sailing and setting the reefs, you won't get in the event. You don't have to do it in storm conditions, but you must be underway. Newbies includes any first time WaterTribers in any event AND anyone who has not finished a WaterTribe Challenge. If you are currently signed up for the NCC2012 and I haven't already made you mad enough to withdraw, then you better start planning your video.

    And don't forget. If I see you leave the beach during a small craft advisory without your reefs in, you will be DQed without a second thought. And I will be watching.

    Do you detect a bit of an edge here? Damn right! I should not have to make this sort of rule.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. CrazyRussian
    Member

    So what happened with all who left the beach without reefs in? Did they all get blown back to the beach?

    Chief, you already designed the perfect course. All unprepared usually drop out within first day. Anyone not capable of crossing Tampa Bay will drift back to one of its shores in 4 hours at most.  All other safety equipment should keep them alive. Real Challenge starts after Sanibel  Isl.  By this point everyone clearly understands what they get themselves into. There are safety measures built into the course. Don't get paranoid here. State outcome - reduced sailarea and ability to drop all sails instantly. Please, don't control how to do it.

    Require all sailboats have sails reefed for pretrip inspection, if you like. 

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. Chief
    Coastal Vagabond

    I am the one who has to deal with the insurance providers and worry about law suits. Anyone stupid enough to not follow the reefing rule without it being written down is the type who would sue even if they agree not to. So I have to be prudent. Rather than cancel the event if there is a small craft advisory, we have the reefing rule, the agreement that you are all experts and the safety equipment.

    So if there is a small craft advisory, have your reefs in. Once you are out of my site, you are the captain and your safety is up to you. It is that or we don't launch.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. CrazyRussian
    Member

    Interesting, what would prevent me from suing you when my roller furler jammed? I can claim that I installed furler just because of your requirement, while removing perfectly safe hank on system.

    It seems that you are getting more exposed to possible lawsuit with every refinement of the rules. For insurance purposes vague rules are better, isn’t it? At least it is what my experience says. I read every insurance policy, you know…

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. Chief
    Coastal Vagabond

    Until now I was not worried about you sueing me, but now I am worried so you cannot signup for any future events.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. DragonSlayer
    Member

    Winddancer Sails in Jax did not want to install any reefs on my sails they made (the original quote in writing and agreed upon included 2 sets of reefs and full batton, neither of which I got)... After I had refused the sails the second time they installed one row, and then we did the second set ourselves. It was a full argument with them because they claimed no small boat needs reefs and if needed I shouldn't be sailing in that kind of weather in small boat. It took Almost 6 months and race time to get it right.

    As far as grommots on mine I reposition the S-hook with down haul, and have a line from end of wishbone that ties into another grommet.. The rest is just bungee cords through two grommots to make it look pretty. Not sure I want a second set of ropes for down hauls as this makes more stuff to rig and unrig when taking masts up and down for bridges etc. Also leaves more stuff loose on sail to potentially get caught.

    The only time we had trouble the mizzen had been dropped (Sarasota bay in dark), but we didn't want to turn into big waves to reef sail. So we choose to go on with one which met the requirements for reducing sail, and just hated the ride with the big waves.

    In my law classes I learned about something called a Reasonable person standard.. If Chief and watertribers all put out that it's dangerous conditions, and a reasonable person would stay put, then the people who put forth not reefed, demast, and come back and sue would get kicked out of court with the jury laughing. Same thing if you put up a wet floor sign and someone walks on it and and gets hurt. Reasonable Person is becoming a big thing in our courts and with juries.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. RubberDucky
    Member

    Class II is sounding better and better all the time.  The sailing thing just seems so complicated...  so much to break, dealing with launching an 800 lb monster, expensive towing fees if things go wrong, etc.  

    I like Mosquito Magnet's style...  simple and light, point the boat where you want to go and just paddle.  How many of the sailboats even made it that far?  Did the Mosquito trimaran really gain that much of an advantage getting to Ft. Clinch considering all of the time, money and complexity involved?  What if the crew had just paddled the Cruiser the whole way?  Hmmmm...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. Chief
    Coastal Vagabond

    It's sort of amusing to me that this simple reefing rule is getting so much input. It really is no different than the rule that has been in place for a few years now. It was just rewritten to remove any misinterpretation because I saw specific errors in how it was implemented in a few cases on the starting line of the EC2012.

    I do see some valid points regarding the roller reefing or furling of the head sails. But requireing two reef points on the main or roller reefing of the main just seems like common sense to me.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. SailBirdMike
    Member

    Hmmm.... my take on all this is that the video rule finally gives me a reason to buy a Go-Pro other than just telling Mahealani that 'I really really want one!'

    Clarity already reefs down to 75% and 55% and had a roller furler on the jib.  As Mistermoon pointed out, most small boat furlers are exactly that... furlers.  They do NOT provide reefing capability.  Lack of time prevented me from making a very small storm job with a zippered luff that fit over the furled jib, but Clarity sailed well enough under reefed main alone that I'll probably skip making one unless I get bored and experiment-minded.  We never needed the second set of reef points on the main, but there were a few times I looked at them, the waves, and the sky, and was glad they were there.  Grommets were, that day, a cheap price for peace of mind.

    I can see a possible issue with reefing points on tiny mizzens.  Perhaps a formula computing sail area in square feet to boat weight - 5% allowed with no reefing.  On the other hand, it would be simple to add a couple of vertican battens to a yard-set yawl mizzen... a little reading of Herreschoff, Chappelle, Skene, and Bolger should provide enough information to create a simple single line system with a weight of less than 1 pound.  Needed?  I don't think so.  But if it placates the lawyers, well... since we aren't allowed to follow the advice of the bard, I guess the next nest thing to do is feed them non-nutritious splork.  And I'd rather see a few uneccessary rules than the cancellation of these events.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. Chief
    Coastal Vagabond

    I am modifying the proposed rule to allow roller furling of the head sails rather than roller reefing. I am also going to allow head sails that use a downhaul and/or other mechanisms that aid in dousing these sails as long as it can be done from within the cockpit.

    Regarding the mizzen sail it is usually very simple to rig a couple of reef points on these sails. Even if the sail is already smaller than the main, the same arguments apply.

    The reefing rule isn't really to placate lawyers (that would be the PLB rule). Instead it is to placate me. Of course, the PLB rule also placates me so I guess I'm the culprit all the way around.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. ZeroTheHero
    Member

    hmmm, this makes tomorrow an interesting day as I have 1 sail at the sailmakers right now.  That sail is a main for a Hobie 17 and is 168 sq. feet.  So do I need to call them and add a 3rd reef point?  Right now they are installing 2 at the previous rule.  Hope they either have not started or that will do because once they are in it will be hard to add others at different percentages.  A third is no problem but I agree with CrazyR that if each reef needs it's own set of lines I am going to run out of room at the mast base pretty quick.  The Hobie does not have a jib, only a main.  However I may not even use that boat so that leads to me my next questions.  I may be switching to a Vanguard Nomad.  The Nomad has a main, jib and spinnaker.  The upwind sail area of the boat is 175 sq. feet but the asymetrical spin is 196 sq. feet.  Is the spinnaker not allowed now?  The main will have 2 reef points and the jib is a roller furler but as others have said small boat furlers are really not designed to reef a jib.  It can be done but it puts loads of tension on the system in way not really intended.  I would be bummed if the spinnaker is out now and would likely not use the Nomad if that is the case.

    I think this is getting a lot of attention because sails are expensive and don't take well to over modification. 

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. SailBirdMike
    Member

    On Clarity, we use tack hooks up front, and grommets in the back with permanent lines in them.  We had a single line with a snap hook that we used to set the reef, after which we tied down the aft end of the sail, set the outhaul tension with the reefing line, and then we moved the downhaul line up to the next reef point.  This system worked well for us, but remember that Clarity is a very stable trimaran, and we designed a special, lower than standard rig for her.  I would never use a system like this on a capsizeable monohull, but as part of an engineered system designed for safety and conservative sailing, it worked quite well.  If the rules require, we'll add a second line permanently.  You can see the setup below, although I'll ask you to ignore the excess of gear we were packing!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. ZeroTheHero
    Member

    is the upper part of your mast a different mast bolted on upside down? 

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. Etchemin
    Member

    SBM

    Santa Claus brought me a GoPro.  We took it on a diving vacation to Dominica.  It worked great.  I took it on a dive and took video for over 40 minutes to a depth of 60 feet.  Except for not having adequate light for that depth it worked as advertised.  Also for underwater video I bought a flat lens for it.  The above water videos worked fine too.

    Etch

    Posted 1 year ago #

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