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1. 

   Bermudaboy
   Member

   Guessing from bout Broad River to almost Northwest Cape, saw nothing but thick wall of  trees right up into the water  (live and dead) and no shore at all, just water and trees, and mored to me more water and more trees behind that. Nowhere to come ashore.     Real curious about this whole stretch of the course and where there is any places to pull out at or camp.. Was pretty unnerving and little scary knowing just could not  cruise on in at will...  and have to keep sailing no matter what...

   Anyone know:

   -what kind of trees these, and why can they live in such conditions

   -how deep the water tends to be right up where treeline meets the water

   -if you do find canal in tree line, does treeline continue the same along the canal, or are there  banks or place to come "ashore".

   - and the six million $ ?, anyone have  gps waypoints for  pull outs/campsites, along this stretch.

   Posted 6 years ago #
2. 

   Macatawa
   Member

   There is only one "legal" campsite, at Graveyard Creek, near the entrance to Shark River. As far as spots to stop, I can't help much, since I have always gone through the WW. I'm curious about some other options though, since I'm planning to go on the outside this year.

   Posted 6 years ago #
3. 

   Chekika
   Member

   The trees are black & red mangroves.

   Kayaks can easily get into Graveyard "official" campsite.  We have Hobie AIs which are not as easy.  Therefore, we normally camp at Scorpion Beach--about 900' along shore to the east. Here is one picture of SB.

   

   It is pretty skinny water around SB & Graveyard, so you like to come in at a +1' tide or higher if possible.  After SB, there is not much in the way of "beaches" until you get down to Cape Sable (NW Cape is about 11 mi, MidCape 15 mi, East Cape 20 mi).

   SB at low tide.

   

   Much of the shoreline in uninviting--but, we did lunch here.  One of our group cut his finger opening a can.  He is being attended:

   

   Illegal fish camp near a tidal creek:

   

   The dead trees are due to hurricanes which sweep through here every few years.

   Keith

   Posted 6 years ago #
4. 

   SaltwaterJunkie
   Member

   Chekika wrote:

   Illegal fish camp near a tidal creek:

    

   

   I'm pretty confident that the photo above is Tyler Creek. The next creek south also has a little sandy spot above the high tide mark. Regardless which of these two spots you pick. I've seen BIG CROCK's there.

   The beaches aren't that far away and have a much better landing.

   Posted 6 years ago #
5. 

   BeastOarman
   Member

   I would keep going, don't like the idea of crocs. I crossed Florida Bay one time east to west and Intended to stay at the Shark Point campsite a little east of Flamingo. Landed at the little beach and walking around, I noticed a strange indentation like something dragged into the water. With footprints to either side. Then I saw a clear imprint on some wetter mud where a big croc had laid out, probably digesting a kayaker. I got back in my rowing shell and slept on the anchor, tent thrown over me to get the benefit of the mosquito netting. Next morning I headed a few miles north to the appropriately named Alligator Creek (apparently one of several in the Glades), and camped there for a few days since those were more my size.

   Posted 6 years ago #
6. 

   Bermudaboy
   Member

   Good  info  & pics, any gps coords for Tyler creek? Always thought mangrooves were just the short girthy ones, what about the tall slender ones, they didn't look like cyprus, and seemed spaced pretty packed together.... In places where you don't see mud or sand, even at low tide does any know what the typical  depth is right at the edge?  Not really sure why I want to know, but for some reason  I'd like be calmed by  answers that said  it is really shallow.

   Mention of Crocs, urgh, the thought  makes me seriously question my sanity and whether to do another challenge (or maybe change craft)... Although North of the discussion, Seadog Rocket and I  lost wind one  night after looking for camping site on Turkey Key and then onto  New Turkey, ended up sleeping in our bivies,  on a little spit of sand,  parrallel between a wall/cliff and the high water level,  literally the water lapped up just a foot away from our bivies at high tide early in the morning.   That was only place we could find..... (Yakmandu, showed up as well!)  Th next night we did make it the Northwest Cape after passing by all this treeline-no-shore.   Legal or illegal, want to get as many potential spots, as I can to have options, specially if for some reason I  just gotta come in...even for a short rest...   Even though my next is still quite a while away... still can't stop thinking and plannin.

   Posted 6 years ago #
7. 

   SaltwaterJunkie
   Member

   The water depth on those shore lines say 200 feet from shore can be  4ft. to 6ft. as you get close to shore there is alot of fallen trees and it could be 2ft. deep but the bottom is not smooth like a beach. Watch you footing when getting out.  That said there are some spots where the bottom is sorta beachy. Don't expect to have clean water during the challange. Unless you guys get lucky with the weather. As the winter fronts come through the wind comes out of the NW and the waves churn up the bottom and the water is like chocolate milk.    

   Posted 6 years ago #
8. 

   stripbuilder
   Member

   Graveyard creek is the only campsite in that area. At low tide there are many places you can stop, stretch, and eat. If caught in a bad situation you could hang a hammock in the mangroves.

   Posted 6 years ago #
9. 

   Chekika
   Member

   Those tall dead trees were probably black mangrove.

   Unless you plan to fish during the EC, there is no sense stopping at Tyler Creek.  NW Cape, with magnificent beaches, easy landing, and nice breeze (keeps the bugs down,) is only about 1-2 mi further depending on how nice a beach you want.

   Hard to say what the water depth is.  If you don't see mud or sand, the shore can be washed away and deeper--2, 4, or more ft.  Often these shore lines are pretty beat up by storms.

   

   They would not be a fun place to land as this boat found out.  This hapless boat is a couple miles south of Lostmans River mouth.

   

   Keith

   Posted 6 years ago #
10. 

    Yakmandu
    Member

    After I camped with you and SeaDogRocket on Turkey Key, we bumped into each other again at Highland Beach for lunch. After lunch you headed offshore and I paddled south close to shore to stay out of the wind. I got a close up look of the area you are asking about. I had the same thoughts regarding "could I land" if things got bad. There are a lot of places to paddle behind down trees and stumps for protection against wind and waves but I would not get out of the boat. If there were significant waves, it would be difficult to avoid stumps and dead trees while seeking protection. I wouldn't attempt it in the dark in rough conditions!

    There are a lot of stumps in the water along the shore, even 50-100 feet out from shore. I bounced off of one stump in the trough between two larger waves. It certainly got my attention! Still, the shallower water knocked down the waves and made paddling into the wind easier. When I got to Shark River, I ducked inside and took Joe River on my way to Flamingo.

    I would either hold up at Highland beach, or make a run for Shark River or the beaches further south.

    Yakmandu

    Posted 6 years ago #
11. 

    SaltwaterJunkie
    Member

    Can you guys paddle in one day in a canoe or kayak NO SAILS from Graveyard to Flamingo? I'd like to know how far you guys paddle in one day? (NO SAILS)

    Posted 6 years ago #
12. 

    Bermudaboy
    Member

    Yakmandu... looks like my memory is wrong, it was New Turkey that we searched around first and then Turkey that we actually camped at.. This stretch worries me the most, as it is alway big comfort knowing if things start getting knarly, that I can start making my way to a   "landing"..  If the landings don't exist then  I need to make sure i plan and make the right decisions of where to call it a day or night.  Thanks for info... (and for the meds and chinese fire alarm roach retreat!)   Look forward to meeting up again someday.

    Posted 6 years ago #
13. 

    BeastOarman
    Member

    Junkie, the short answer is Yes, most anyone can paddle Graveyard to Flamingo in one day. You can look at the Tracker map to look up individual experiences for Class 2 (no sails). Last year it took me 15 hours or so paddling I to some fierce headwinds on the Joe River and hiding out from thunderstorms an hour or two.
    In general, how far you go in one day depends a lot on weather and willingness to defer sleep. We did 36 hours without stopping, Choko to Flamingo, at a pretty slow pace. Went outside then in at Ponce de Leon.

    Posted 6 years ago #
14. 

    SaltwaterJunkie
    Member

    BeastOarman wrote:

    Junkie, the short answer is Yes, most anyone can paddle Graveyard to Flamingo in one day. You can look at the Tracker map to look up individual experiences for Class 2 (no sails). Last year it took me 15 hours or so paddling I to some fierce headwinds on the Joe River and hiding out from thunderstorms an hour or two.
    In general, how far you go in one day depends a lot on weather and willingness to defer sleep. We did 36 hours without stopping, Choko to Flamingo, at a pretty slow pace. Went outside then in at Ponce de Leon.

     

    The reason I asked is that if a person could do that in one day, then the only reason would be shelter from the weather. As there is no need for a Chickee. I've been fishing Flamingo for 30 years and can tell you you guys are going about this the via the long route. Maybe it gets you more points or whatever. I could show you a route that is semi protected and calm. There is wind in places just like Joe River but I think it's less distance.

    Posted 6 years ago #
15. 

    BeastOarman
    Member

    Shorter is better, what is the route?

    Posted 6 years ago #
16. 

    SaltwaterJunkie
    Member

    The northen edge of whitewater. If you get a chart you can see that it pretty protected. If the weather is good a straight shot right down the middle is the ticket. The problem with following the markers is that there's no protection from the wind.

    Posted 6 years ago #
17. 

    ClamCounter
    Member

    Bermudaboy wrote:

    Good  info  & pics, any gps coords for Tyler creek? Always thought mangrooves were just the short girthy ones, what about the tall slender ones, they didn't look like cyprus, and seemed spaced pretty packed together.... In places where you don't see mud or sand, even at low tide does any know what the typical  depth is right at the edge?  Not really sure why I want to know, but for some reason  I'd like be calmed by  answers that said  it is really shallow.

    Mention of Crocs, urgh, the thought  makes me seriously question my sanity and whether to do another challenge (or maybe change craft)... Although North of the discussion, Seadog Rocket and I  lost wind one  night after looking for camping site on Turkey Key and then onto  New Turkey, ended up sleeping in our bivies,  on a little spit of sand,  parrallel between a wall/cliff and the high water level,  literally the water lapped up just a foot away from our bivies at high tide early in the morning.   That was only place we could find..... (Yakmandu, showed up as well!)  Th next night we did make it the Northwest Cape after passing by all this treeline-no-shore.   Legal or illegal, want to get as many potential spots, as I can to have options, specially if for some reason I  just gotta come in...even for a short rest...   Even though my next is still quite a while away... still can't stop thinking and plannin.

    Classic Water Triber statement, BB!...... "ended up sleeping in our bivies,  on a little spit of sand,  parallel between a wall/cliff and the high water level,  literally the water lapped up just a foot away from our bivies at high tide early in the morning."<o:p></o:p>

    Great thread here! Typically, after we exit the 10,000 Islands at Rabbit Key we set our course for Cape Sable as the crow flies. However, during the past two EC's we've also found ourselves in becalming conditions at night offshore of Shark River.  We too were cautiously curious about making a maiden landing in this area at night.  The first year we found ourselves in this predicament we paddled towards shore considering landing options.  We first encountered the good ole Everglades mosquitos buzz in our ears about a half mile off shore (we were well prepared in our "EC Uniforms" - dry suits, hats, buffs and gloves etc.)  The area where we approached shore looked questionable. So, we simply chose to stay offshore just out of range of the mosquitos. Then we cooked a meal with our MSR pocket rocket and snoozed a bit on our catamaran trampoline.  Finally, after a few hours of waiting out the doldrums (1 to 4AM) we heard the (beloved) mast rotation squawk from the wind moving our rigging and we continued on our sail to CP3.  <o:p></o:p>

    Looking forward to negotiating this year’s offshore/inshore conditions and challenges...<o:p></o:p>

    Posted 6 years ago #
18. 

    MisterMoon
    Member

    We ran out of wind about four or five miles off this coast in the middle of the night. Tiring of the slatting sails, we took them down and slept. We were drifting in more or less the right direction which meant we were among miles with no effort. If our drift was in the wrong direction, we would have simply dropped anchor in the 15' deep water. Having a boat you can sleep on is a huge advantage.

    Posted 6 years ago #
19. 

    Bermudaboy
    Member

    Urgh,  says there rewriting the pamphlets now... 

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/26/crocodile-bite-florida-swimmers-miami

    related story with pic on bottom link same page..

    Posted 6 years ago #
20. 

    BeastOarman
    Member

    Talking about the offending Croc they say, "He said the team of trappers would remove the crocodile, a federally protected species, from the neighbourhood and find it a new home in a wildlife sanctuary elsewhere in the state."
    Guess where THAT would be?!
    On the plus side, sounds like fishing for Crocs is a sure fire deterrent.

    Posted 6 years ago #
21. 

    Chekika
    Member

    Who's afraid of a big, bad croc?

    These pictures were taken by AlexO of a large croc on the bank of a river draining Lake Ingraham near East Cape Sable.

    

    

     Keith

    Posted 6 years ago #
22. 

    danceswithmullet
    Member

    Well, Skinnydipping would be out for me. DWM

    Posted 6 years ago #
23. 

    Bermudaboy
    Member

    I am, said the not very brave triber!   Not too sure how much excrement my suit was designed to hold without ripping, should I come face to ...,  or  even tail...  Even moreso if solo and no one around to fake bravado with....  

    Wee brain just imagined me setting up my bivy and getting all cozy under the everglades starlit sky on a silky white sand beach, just past the tide mark, right atop of big-mama's buried egg nest..

    Which begs the question, when do these lizards lay their eggs?  

    Think of changin  my tribename to: Yowamushi (japanese for sissy-coward)

    Posted 6 years ago #
24. 

    MisterMoon
    Member

    Anyone taking off on a windsurfer on the EC isn't a coward. 

    We all have our particular fears. Yours happens to be big lizards, mine is big nasty breaking waves closing out an inlet. 

    Posted 6 years ago #
25. 

    Bermudaboy
    Member

    MM: maybe if my courage doesn't come back up by 2016 EC, I could crew for you!   Well technically,  word for word, the Japanese tranz to "Weakling-Bug" and I think with the way I feel about these crocs, it at least qualifies me for that &  does sound like a good native triber name... both in the vernacular and the word for word tranz.  

    Posted 6 years ago #
26. 

    Bermudaboy
    Member

    (source http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/uw157)

     After the courtship period, males go about their business and the fertilized females begin nest preparation. Nesting is a wet season activity occcurring around the end of April and the beginning of May. Females lay between 20 to 60 eggs per clutch, and the eggs will incubate for about 85 days hatching in late July or early August.

    By the early 1970s, loss of crocodile habitat in Florida restricted nesting to an small area of northeastern Florida Bay and nothern Key Largo (Figure 1). In 1978, a third nesting area was discovered at the Florida Power and Light Company's Turkey Point Power Plant site. After crocodiles were declared endangered in 1975, protected areas were established in the three known nesting areas: northeastern Florida Bay in Everglades National Park, Crocodile Lake National Wildlife Refuge on Key Largo, and Turkey Point (Figure 1).

    American crocodile nests are constructed so that the eggs will be above the high water mark. Crocodilian eggs cannot survive flooding for more than 12 hours. Crocodiles build soil (sand, marl, or peat) nests on elevated, well-drained sites. Most of the habitats meeting the requirement for crocodile nesting are near higher salinity water (greater than 80% sea water, 29 ppt). Crocodile nests may be mounds or holes. After nest construction, female crocodiles in Florida do not remain near the nest. However, toward the end of incubation, females visit the nest with increasing frequency. When hatching begins, the mother digs open the nest and may help some of the hatchlings emerge from their eggs. She also may assist the newly hatched crocodiles to water or nursery sites where they are released. Adult crocodiles leave the nesting areas within a day or two, leaving the hatchling crocodiles on their own. As a result, hatchling crocodiles disperse rapidly from their nest sites and fend for themselves.

    Posted 6 years ago #
27. 

    Chekika
    Member

    In the freshwater portions of the Everglades, alligators are common.  They have a healthy fear of humans and generally keep out of the way.  Nevertheless, when you come around a corner and 8-10' startled gator dives off a ledge into the water in front of you, it is natural to rattled for a moment (& hoping that he is not lurking somewhere under your boat.)  It is very rare for an adult person to be killed by a gator in FL, if that is any comfort.  Dogs & children are in much more danger.

    Regarding crocs, there is a lot of activity on the beaches of East Cape Sable in late March, early April--maybe the mating season.  They are easily spooked, and it is hard to get close to them.  For years, we have sea kayaked and used Hobie AIs along coastal Everglades from Flamingo to Chokoloskee to Cape Romano.  In the winter months, we never see crocs on the beaches, and I feel very comfortable there.

    Having said that, I would never go in Everglades water, fresh or salt, at night.

    Keith 

    Posted 6 years ago #
28. 

    SaltwaterJunkie
    Member

    Chekika wrote:

    In the freshwater portions of the Everglades, alligators are common.  They have a healthy fear of humans and generally keep out of the way.  Nevertheless, when you come around a corner and 8-10' startled gator dives off a ledge into the water in front of you, it is natural to rattled for a moment (& hoping that he is not lurking somewhere under your boat.)  It is very rare for an adult person to be killed by a gator in FL, if that is any comfort.  Dogs & children are in much more danger.

    Regarding crocs, there is a lot of activity on the beaches of East Cape Sable in late March, early April--maybe the mating season.  They are easily spooked, and it is hard to get close to them.  For years, we have sea kayaked and used Hobie AIs along coastal Everglades from Flamingo to Chokoloskee to Cape Romano.  In the winter months, we never see crocs on the beaches, and I feel very comfortable there.

    Having said that, I would never go in Everglades water, fresh or salt, at night.

     

    Keith 

     

    Well I've seen plenty of Croc's on those beaches. But I'll tell you that I will not go in the water day or night. I've caught plenty of big Bull Sharks while fishing right off these same beaches.

    Posted 6 years ago #
29. 

    BeastOarman
    Member

    Great. Just f'n great.

    Posted 6 years ago #
30. 

    PainenDias
    Blocked

    No sweat!  I will bring a hammock and be high enough off the ground to avoid wildlife.  Everybody knows gators can't climb!

    

    Posted 6 years ago #

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