MR2341...and then a bit more « WaterTribe Forums

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MR2341...and then a bit more

(16 posts) (8 voices)

Started 6 years ago by Obruni
Latest reply from KnotSynced

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Obruni
Member

Watertribe,

This coming May I’m going to launch a canoe near the headwaters of the Missouri and paddle to the Gulf. This much is decided.

What is undecided is the craft I will call home for more than half a year. When I first started dreaming of this trip I fathomed these 3800 miles in my stitch and glue kayak, but a complication has presented itself: I will now travel for up to two months with a partner who is incapable of paddling her own craft given her health and age. My mother is recovering from cancer and she needs this trip as much as I do. As a teacher she has up to two months to spare in the summer and she’s anxious to get back on the water and join me for a leg of this trip. I don't think I need to explain the redemptive powers of paddling here or the inherent value in difficulty. My brother will also join me for a week, as will a smattering of other family and friends. For the first time in my life, I need a canoe. And I don’t know where to start.

I need a canoe that is efficient and can handle 1 person and gear easily because this is how I will spend the majority of my days, but I need a canoe that can accommodate a second person and their gear as needed. There will be no real white water on this trip, although some of the dams have created massive lakes that will allow for potentially significant weather, and while I have no illusions of paddling solo into 25knot headwinds, I don’t want to be shore-bound for days because my boat gets blown around like a plastic bag in a stiff breeze. I need a comfortable well-tracking gear hauler with just enough room to spare for changing partners, and moderate lake weather. I have always prized efficiency in a hull over stability and this trip is no different. I’m a proficient canoeist, but I’ve never invested in a canoe of my own and have never spent the hours online drooling and dreaming like I have over ~~Nordkapps~~ kayaks. In comparison canoes have seemed like simple crafts relative to the sea kayak. That is, until I started researching what this trip requires of a canoe.

A final consideration is that I will choose to be unemployed for most of 2016. And because I have spent the last 4 years not as a stock broker but as a park ranger, my finances are humble. I can’t drop 3k on a new Kevlar boat.

So I write in the hopes of tapping into the great wellspring of boating knowledge that is this community. What, Watertribe, is the canoe to handle a trip of this magnitude?

I leave California in March and will drive to Tennessee, then to Wisconsin, and eventually to Montana. I’m going to cover a heck of a lot of ground in this country and I’ve never been afraid of detours. If you know of a suitable boat that’s for sale, please don’t hesitate in letting me know.

Sincerely,

Obruni

Yosemite, CA

Posted 6 years ago #
danceswithwaves
Member

Obruni,

Sounds like a great trip. There are so many boat options out there. You might consider a tandem sea kayak. When paddling solo, the other cockpit can be sealed off. Scareman has used this set up extensively. You can contact Brad through member services. He might be amenable to sharing his insights on this alternative. Good luck with it. Royd

Posted 6 years ago #
MarlinBrando
Member

I would suggest my 22 foot river canoe. But its been turned into a trimaran!

Posted 6 years ago #
BeaV
Member

I own a canoe that works exactly as what you describe. The Mad River Malecite is a good tandem canoe and works as a good solo canoe, too. It is not the best at either- it's a little small for a tandem and a little big for a solo coming in at a length of 16.5'. Mine is a '90's vintage with 3 seats. Now the nice thing is with the 3 seats and a symetrical hull, seating options are many depending on if your paddling solo or tandem and wind conditions. With the symetrical hull, you can sit in the bow seat paddling backwords (this is my standard position when solo). When the wind picks up, I paddle in the center seat or kneel if things get real dicey. It is a low profile boat that doesn't catch too much wind. On a lengthy trip such as yours, the extra capacity of this boat may be needed over a true solo boat, depending how light you pack.

I'm sure you can google it and get lots of more technical reviews on the boat. This is my goto boat that I use on most of my trips into the BWCA for the past 20 years. The longest solo I've used it on was 300 miles that included some big lakes such as the Rainy and Namakan on the Minnesota/Canada border. Mine is a kevlar with gelcoat layup and wood gunwales, weight is 55 pounds.

BTW, mine is not for sale. Should be able to find a used one for $1000-1500 I would think. Let me know if you have any questions.

BeaV

Posted 6 years ago #
Lawless
Member

At the other extreme, (namely the "cheap and simple one"), 5 years ago, I flew to France, built a couple of Storer "Quick Canoes" and proceeded to paddle for the next week through the French wine country. The boats were cheap, quick to build, very stable, comfortable for two plus copious amounts of gear and at trip's end, our in country host was so impressed by them that he insisted on keeping one for himself! The late Paul Helbert, who, btw, was a very talented canoeist, could really make that hull sing! If I was looking for a cheap, easy, capable option, I would not hesitate to build another and paddle it just about anywhere.

Complete story of the adventure was published on Duckworks: http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/12/outings/loire/index.html

Fair winds!
Shawn "Lawless" Payment

Posted 6 years ago #
KnotSynced
Member

Of all the boats I have owned, i have gotten the most use from my canoes. When Aleutian and I plan a long distance expedition trip, the trusty Old Town is often the go to boat to get the job done. It can carry the kitchen sink and still paddles well.

I have a friend who paddled the Mississippi a few years back. He used a kevlar 17ft wenonah.

One thing to note is the Mississippi can get pretty choppy. You want to have something that has some freeboard at the bow and stern to handle the chop.

Tumblehome hulls are nice for solo and you can place a seat a lille to the stern of midships and propel it with a kayak paddle. Coolers can work as a movable canoe seat, and nothing beats a cold drink. Look for a cooler that is not too tall. I had an igloo that was about the same footprint as a 48qt, but it was not as tall. It made a great canoe seat for solo paddling. The reason for moving towards midships is to keep the hull flat in the water. You can also do this with gear placement and sit in the standard stern seat. Disadvantage is the cold drinks and the rest of your gear are not in reach.

The key factors for efficiency are the same as kayaks. These are long waterline length, narrow waterline width and minimal rocker.

Weight doesn't matter on the water. Fiberglass is stiffer than most plastics. Many lighter plastic boats tend to oilcan on the floor. My royalex canoe was bad about this.

If you go plastic, it is hard to beat the Old Town Charles River or Penobscot. I am a big Old Town fan. They are tough as nails. Aleutian and I have taken an Old Town through some creeks and rivers that would kill most boats. It bounces off and keeps on going. It is also comfortable when the water gets rough and it carries very heavy expedition loads well. Did I say I am a huge fan of Old Town...

Budget fiberglass boats that are very good include Clipper Canoes and Lincoln Canoes.

The Clipper Yukon paddles very well and the new price was around 1200 when I looked at them a few years ago.

Used canoes abound, but like used kayaks, most are recreational and a little light on the performance for what you want to do. 3/4 a knot is huge on a trip like that.

Sounds like a fantastic trip!

Posted 6 years ago #
KnotSynced
Member

Lawless, those are great looking boats when finished. Enjoyed the article!

Posted 6 years ago #
seabag
Member

Got time to build a stripper? There are a bunch of designs in the 16-17' range. If it was me I'd be looking more the Jensen/ Bell end of things than the Old Town which are great lake river running boats. Poke around on the Craigs list in Minnesota, the Boundary waters area.

Posted 6 years ago #
KnotSynced
Member

http://greenville.craigslist.org/boa/5227875729.html

Think this is similar to what BeaV suggests. Very nice option for that trip.

Posted 6 years ago #
KnotSynced
Member

Seabag's suggestion may be right on. Jensens don't carry weight well, but they are fast. If you pack light, and treat this with the kayaking mindset, speed may be your friend on such a long trip. These racing boats would be faster than a tripping canoe.

I don't know much about the speed of the racing canoes, but I can give you some speeds for tripping canoes.

We have paddled the Old Town side by side with some nicer tripping canoes and really don't notice a significant cruising speed difference over distance. The average speed tends to be about 3.2 knots over a long distance when paddling tandem. We cruise around 3.5 knots when we are thinking about making distance, but average tends to fall to 3.2 with distractions and one paddler or the other taking breaks from time to time. This is about the same as the kevlar and glass tripping boats we have paddled with.

Solo, the boat does less. Probably 3.0 knots on a good day. Wind makes a huge difference when paddling and especially when paddling solo. A good headwind can bring this speed down to near zero. Using a double bladed paddle increases speed.

I compared the specs of the Wenonah Escape and Escapade to the Old Town. The Wenonahs have a narrower waterline and slightly less rocker. In theory they are faster. We just don't see that on the water when paddling with these boats over long distances. Cruising speeds tend to be about the same. It may be crew dependent.

I believe higher end tripping canoes would beat us in a sprint and have a higher top end speed. The Old Town is a bit of a pig on top end speed. Above cruisng speed the Old Town starts putting out a lot of wake and increased efforts make more noise than speed. I suspect a boat with zero rocker will do better. This may translate to getting a little more cruising speed out of the boat as ones physical condition and paddling efficiency increases.

You made me do some research on specs. From this, I really like the specs of the Wenonah Escapade. It can carry decent weight and looks like it could be paddled easily both solo and tandem.

Hope this average speed info helps in your planning.

Posted 6 years ago #
Obruni
Member

I'm going to stick to a canoe over a kayak for comfort, space, and the interchangeability of partners seems easier in a canoe.

If only I had time to build a strip canoe...

KnotSynced, thanks for all your good words and advice. I'm looking hard at the Wenonah Escapade and Escape. The Escape may be too much boat to handle solo. The 17' Clipper Prospector is an interesting craft and a similar trip was done using this boat a few years ago by a guy who mostly paddled solo, but had partners sporadically. From the pictures it also looks like he was heavier on gear than I plan to be.

The idea of a quick canoe is appealing, but I'd be concerned about durability for the length of this trip. Besides, I spend too much time on the water not to invest in a canoe for the long term. Thanks for the article Lawless, that must have been a great trip.

The Malecite has outsanding reviews and certainly seems like a worthy boat to own. I haven't read anything that indicates it would be suitable for two people and their loads for, say, a week on the water. Based on what I've been able to dig up, it seems like a very light trip could be squeezed out of the boat, but I'd be concerned about carrying all that drinking water. I also don't expect some of my partners to have the same backpacker / kayaker mentaility I do when it comes to gear weight.

Thanks for the great responses. This is just the dialogue I need.

Posted 6 years ago #
Ridgerunner
Member

Obruni, you could switch boats when your Mother leaves you. I have an old, patched wildwater canoe (WeNoNah C-1W, no longer made) that I used to race on whitewater and have subsequently used as a tripping boat (Big Bend, Suwannee, Everglades) before I got a Kruger. You could have it for a song.

In terms of capacity and speed, the Mad River Explorer and the Old Town Tripper are classics - maybe one of the companies would loan/give you one - Mad River used to loan canoes to me for the Nationals.

Good luck. Keep us informed. It might be fun to join you for a few days as you paddle by.

Doug

Posted 6 years ago #
Obruni
Member

Ridgerunner, thanks for the offer of your C-1W for a song. I hope to inspire a little adventure in some friends and family with this trip and would like to keep a second seat open to any spontaneous passengers. Besides, I need room for hitchhikers.

Once my website is up to credibly broadcast this trip, I will send letters see if any canoe manufacturer wants to donate a boat.

Thanks!

-Kris

Posted 6 years ago #
Obruni
Member

The We-no-nah Escapade has really caught my eye (Thanks KnotSynced for putting me down that path). I've read all the reviews and have talked to a few owners, but still feel I have an incomplete picture for expedition use.

Has anyone paddled this boat much? Know anyone that has?

Posted 6 years ago #
Obruni
Member

Hey Watertribe. I utterly failed to let any of you who may be interested know that this trip is well underway. My apologies. April 29th I hiked up to the highest spring that feeds the Missouri, and have since been descending this long, laborious waterway. It's been a great trip so far. Later this week my brother and his 9y/o son join me for a 214 mile stretch into Williston, North Dakota.

Thanks for all those who hashed out the boat selection with me. I ended up with a Mad River Explorer 16 in Royalex. This boat was not my first choice, but over these first 800 miles or so I have grown to love her -- she's put up with absolute hellish conditions and handled it all amazingly well.

If you have an interest in seeing how this trip unfolds:

Blog: AvoidingBarges.com

Pretty pictures: Instagram.com/avoidingbarges

Regular updates: Facebook.com/avoidingallthebarges

Happy paddling to all,

Obruni

Posted 6 years ago #
KnotSynced
Member

Thanks for the update. I really enjoyed the blog and FB page. Such a great adventure and getting to spend parts of it with those who are important to you is priceless. Your mother is a real trooper for paddling 481 miles of challenging water with you.

Posted 6 years ago #

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