Limits for Shore Contacts. Thoughts.

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Limits for Shore Contacts. Thoughts.

(24 posts) (17 voices)

Started 4 months ago by KayakVagabond
Latest reply from ZeroTheHero

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KayakVagabond
Member

There was a lot of post-event beach discussion this year about what level of support is "proper" from a shore contact, and I would like to see this discussed more fully. The rules state that no material assistance can be provided, but what about transmitting a full GPS route? What about a waypoint? This may be a moot point, since none of this is enforceable, and a prepared team will have all of this ready long before race day, but having some guidelines would help.

Technology and cell coverage has advanced to the point that considerable navigation assistance can be provided while enroute. For example, if a team navigates via a phone app, then route files can be sent to them on the course, allowing navigaton of a a detailed route that wasn't known to them before the race started.

IMO your shore contact, over the phone, can provide you with emotional support, basic weather information, and general information on the whereabouts of your closest competitors (even though I would actually prefer that each competitor was in the "dark" about this until they reach the checkpoint and read the logs).

I believe that shore contacts, except for providing basic information, should not be directing a team's navigation including sending GPS routes, waypoint or other navigation information (except in an emergency/safety situation where there are no restrictions).

What's your take?

Posted 4 months ago #
PrivateHam
Member

Keeping a sound-enough mind to fully consider the tides and weather in order to select the best route forward is part of the challenge. Having someone make those calculations for me from the comfort of their home computer would be a significant advantage when compared to doing that when you are tired, at night, on the water, with a spotty connection.

Posted 4 months ago #
danceswithmullet
Member

This supposed to be unsupported, many take this seriously others not so much. I live along the route and friends will stop at checkpoints or see me by boat and dangle treats much more appealing than my tuna packets and shit bars, but I would never accept anything although there was 0 chance at getting caught. The amount of data available at our fingers via smartphones, gps features covering nav and tides tables, and weather from vhf anyone accepting outside assistance I would consider weak! It is uninforcable but if you need or accept outside help you are definitely below those who finish without it. DWM

Posted 4 months ago #
SOS
Member

Getting any info from your shore contact could be considered "not in the spirit of unsupported expedition" but its not black and white to me and you are still out there all alone at the end of the phone call, you still have to set up your own tent and you can't paddle if you're texting or holding a phone to your ear. Having a new route or piece of intel might make the way forward easier but you are still on your own. For that reason I think that anyone who finishes the challenge would have done so regardless of whether they got intel from shore contact or not and those who don't wouldn't have.

Example: You're getting cold and tired and don't have a camp waypoint nearby, maybe you already passed it. A tough decision... A call to your shore contact to check in might provide you with a clear head that convinces you to pull off and sleep maybe helping you locate a camp not in your gps. (hey, go .3 more mile and it looks like there is a beach) A voice of reason. This is no different than if you had a partner on the boat with you to make decisions together as many participants do. Double teams have an advantage in that way and probably wouldn't need to make that call in the first place. Ad hock teams offer similar companionship/info/help. This kind of "help" in today's smartphone age should be OK also because it's not enforceable. Don't forget also that much of the course does not have cell signal.

Same goes for looking up other racers positions via spot. I don't have a problem with that. Part of the reason we all do this is because we know others are out on the course with us. People who say for example, why would I pay to do watertribe when I could go do it for free whenever I want NEVER ACTUALLY DO for exactly this reason. It's no fun. Your shore contact telling you that so and so is already at the checkpoint and had a tough time getting there might be just what you needed to keep your spirits up. Personally, as a two man team we often check the location of other boats becuase it helps us plan. Thats just the nature of the game now. Times change and we all deal.

Now, should they be able to finish the challenge without having to call home? yes. Should there be repercussions for needing to call home for "directions"? I don't think so. You could argue that they did it with a "crutch" but that thinking doesn't lead anywhere because this is the day and age that we live in. We can't tell participants to leave their phones at home. The above mostly is speaking to those not "racing" the course. That is because those who are making this a reace are also doing so on their own. It didn't start as a race, it was made into one by the fast guys. It we start making rules that apply to racing and competitive edge it will only lead to arguments. Let those who race, race. Some events have a "racer" or "participant" option to allow those to declare beforehand hmm. my 2 cents.

Posted 4 months ago #
MicroTom
Key Master

SOS, Well said. I couldn't agree more. Not all of us are capable of racing or even want to. Just finishing is personaly rewarding for most. No matter how much help a shore contact gave you electonicly you still did the sailing and paddling.

Where I do take exception is when a shore contact follows their competitor down the coast and meets them at stops along the way to assist. It could be pre-planned or requests along the way for supplies, help docking boats or pulling them out of the water, providing shelter along the way like sleeping in the shore contact's van or RV. That to me is going to far and taking away from the event.

Posted 4 months ago #
KayakVagabond
Member

Very good responses. Just to be clear, I don't have a personal beef to air, I just don't want to see the day come when to be competitive participants feel they need wear a headset and have an expert shore contact that provides updated routes on-the-fly making allowances for wind/weather/tide. Hopefully I will be too decrepit to paddle when/if that day comes. As Mike said, making decisions, especially under the fog of sleep deprivation, is part of the challenge.

While a shore contact can't paddle/sail for you, at some point the skill/fitness levels are very close, and results often hinge on who has the best navigation and strategy including a good sleep plan. This is more a factor for those who choose to treat the event as a race. IMO, you use the routes and navigation information that you prepared with you before the event started and not those delivered by outside sources.

Electronic help is not enforceable, but there could be a "gentleman's/gentlewoman's agreement" among certain groups, if there was a consensus.

That said, Alan, I agree that this was never intended to be a race, and that in the end we have to choose to run the "race" on our own terms and that fits our goals (within the rules). For example last year I only called my shore contact once (in Flamingo), because most of the time I was reaching checkpoints in the middle of the night and didn't want to wake her. Only later did I find out that I was in the "dog house" because I didn't call home often enough! :)

Posted 4 months ago #
BustedRudder
Member

It will be nearly impossible to prevent "electronic cheating" and if someone is so ill prepared for the event they need routes sent on the fly they have larger problems looming.

Agree with MT on physical assistance but even that is complicated. Clearly, shelter and supplies cannot be given and should be grounds for DQ, but what about meds, spare spot, vhf, chart or even a hat? Some of the very basic necessities could be the difference between a newbies dropping or going. I was that newbie in 2011 dropping out at CP2. A checkpoint captain has the latitude to drive a partictipant into town for these things. Newbies tend to have anxious shore support. They (participants & support) just need to understand limits, and look to the checkpoint captains as referees if in doubt.

To KV point, and this is a Chief question, do we really need to have phones as required equipment when we have PLBs and VHF? Phones have never been involved in any rescues that I am aware of. Mine died before Wiggins and it turned out to be a liberating experience. Aside from bummimg someones at CP3 to say hi to SparkleRocket I wasted no time looking at weather, tides, FB or mail. The important stuff can be gotten on GPS and VHF. I would like the option to leave mine behind.

Everyone says it wasn't intended to be a race, Why do some paddles say finisher and some winner?

Posted 4 months ago #
MisterMoon
Member

I've listened to too many VHF distress calls with the USCG where the USCG requested the boater to call via cell phone due to the VHF communications being of poor quality. A phone is a necessary safety item, IMO.

Posted 4 months ago #
BeaV
Member

Rules #4 and 6 are clear to me. Rule #4 says "no material support". Rule #6 says "self sufficient". These events are unsupported, expedition-style challenges.

To me, getting weather updates, navigation information, location of other participants, or any useful information from shore contacts is assisting me and therefore is both material support and not being self sufficient. If I had the information before the Challenge start or I learn it, myself, along the way- that's OK.

For you softies out there- hugs and kisses are allowed.

It is not me against you out there, rather it is me against me (and whatever happens out there) that I have to overcome. If I challenge myself well enough, maybe I can get to Key Largo before others.

Posted 4 months ago #
MicroTom
Key Master

BustedRudder wrote:

Clearly, shelter and supplies cannot be given and should be grounds for DQ, but what about meds, spare spot, vhf, chart or even a hat? Some of the very basic necessities could be the difference between a newbies dropping or going. I was that newbie in 2011 dropping out at CP2. A checkpoint captain has the latitude to drive a partictipant into town for these things.

If the meds, spare spot, vhf, chart, or hat are not preplanned support then I don't have a problem with this either. Many times challengers have had to go to shore to get an item fixed or replaced. Almost always this results in a time penalty due to waiting for it to arrive or arranging the logistics to make it happen. I believe this is how its been handled by race officials for a long time now. Its not ok for a shore contact to shadow a challenger going down the coast with a vehicle full of spares and extra equipment.

Posted 4 months ago #
MisterMoon
Member

I don't have a problem with communication between racers and anyone. In this era of smartphones, it's all at our fingertips anyway. I would have a problem with someone running the race like a sprint and not carrying enough food+water, no shelter, no extra clothes, and relying on a chase team to provide those necessities at various points along the way.

Posted 4 months ago #
Chief
Coastal Vagabond

OK, I will give my take on all of this.

First, there is no way I can enforce any rule about what can and cannot be done over the phone. If people want to get position reports on others or have someone else tell them what to do, they can do it.

Also, the phones backup our other safety equipment. When some challengers had their SPOT malfunction, we were able to get updates by contacting their shore contacts. I don't want to put any rules in place that would detract from that capability. We did get information by phone regarding a SPOT that setoff its SOS signal due to a malfunction. We have had people arrange for pickup and for repairs using their phone. It will always be required equipment.

The only change that sort of touches on the root of this topic is that a GPS will move from suggested equipment to required equipment. That GPS will have to have waypoints and routes stored and our inspectors will be looking for them. It is rumored that more than one captain did not have any routes and did not know where some of the checkpoints where. I don't know if that is true, but I could see it happening. Also, no charts! How did they pass inspection?!?! I am looking into it.

Regarding those who want to navigate the old school way using chart and compass or the stars, go for it. I admire your ability to do that. But you will have to have the GPS as backup.

Posted 4 months ago #
IronBob
Member

BeaV, that is the high standard, bravo! My team has not lived up to that standard. Whereas we have always done our own navigating, we have used the phone to get position reports of others. Once in '13, twice in '14, can't remember if we used the phone in '15 or '16, but we probably did once or twice, and once in this past challenge.

I have to admit I may have started this conversation of shore contact limits because I bitched about, well questioned, a team getting detailed position reports of us throughout the event. They knew which pass we took, when we arrived at a CP, when and where we rested, and on and on, and they freely admited doing so, therefore in their minds they were not cheating. However, I felt their use of technology and coordination with their shore contact was way over the top. That team and Druce and I have extensive expedition adventure race experience and outside contact is never allowed. Of course, this expedition race, this challenge is different.

Going full technology/shore contact coordination is a trend I would prefer not to see happen. But of course, one of the things that makes this challenge unique and therefore very interesting is the wide latitude we're given in how we define the challenge for ourseleves.

As to whether it is a race or not; all of our WaterTribe shirts say expedition-style adventure race(s). Besides, if you put a bunch of guys and gals on a beach with their boats, a race will ensue.

Posted 4 months ago #
SkinnyGenes
Member

The "Challenge" is many things to many people. The rules that are in place allow for a certain level of safety for the prepared sailor/paddler. The rules also allow for a true adventure . This is an organized event where there is significant levels of danger . Why he shares these adventures with us and accepts cerain liabilites for our actions, I have no idea. Thanks to Chief for being that person .

It may be hard for a first time challenger to quantify what makes a sucessful "Challenge ". Making the start, finishing, or going for a class win are all great goals to different challengers. This may not be easy to understand the first time,but more than obvious when you sign up for your second.

The "gray" area of the rules are yours to shade.Make of it what you like. Gray is the area between black and white. Make it bright,like a light guiding your way. Or, make it dark as a moon less night, a hole of darkness.The Devil is in the details.

The worst thing that can happen is that due to your ignorance or bad information from outside sources, you are cheated out of the real "Challenge", the adventure that Chief is attemping to provide. It is sad to think that a new Triber can be missguided by influences from outside the Tribe , the unseen, the unworthy, the Dead ,but it happens.The pain , the suffering,the eurphoria, the sucess, the failure, your personel accomplishment , taken from you, not being allowed to be exposed to this true adventure.

The new Triber needs guidance. If they didnt get enough before the "Challenge" we should provide it after. They will accept the "guidance" and return for a more fullfilling adventure, or not return , the true adventure unobtainable.

The truely deviant , the repeat offender ,deserves our pitty. Cheating themselves.They only cheat themselves, no one else. So sad. The sucess and experiance of a Watertribe challenge is contained within you, not some numbers and letters on results list. The value obtained in your challenge can not be devalued by someone elses experiance.You own your challenge.

If you join the Watertribe and don't get it after a few challenges, you will be banished by your own accord , by your piers, or if nessasary by Chief , the lowest of lows.

The salty spray we all endure , washes away all the stains.

Posted 4 months ago #
SkinnyGenes
Member

SkinnyGenes wrote:

The "Challenge" is many things to many people. The rules that are in place allow for a certain level of safety for the prepared sailor/paddler. The rules also allow for a true adventure . This is an organized event where there is significant levels of danger . Why he shares these adventures with us and accepts cerain liabilites for our actions, I have no idea. Thanks to Chief for being that person .

It may be hard for a first time challenger to quantify what makes a sucessful "Challenge ". Making the start, finishing, or going for a class win are all great goals to different challengers. This may not be easy to understand the first time,but more than obvious when you sign up for your second.

The "gray" area of the rules are yours to shade.Make of it what you like. Gray is the area between black and white. Make it bright,like a light guiding your way. Or, make it dark as a moon less night, a hole of darkness.The Devil is in the details.

The worst thing that can happen is that due to your ignorance or bad information from outside sources, you are cheated out of the real "Challenge", the adventure that Chief is attemping to provide. It is sad to think that a new Triber can be missguided by influences from outside the Tribe , the unseen, the unworthy, the Dead ,but it happens.The pain , the suffering,the eurphoria, the sucess, the failure, your personel accomplishment , taken from you, not being allowed to be exposed to this true adventure.

The new Tribers needs guidance. If they didnt get enough before the "Challenge" we should provide it after. They will accept the "guidance" and return for a more fullfilling adventure, or not return , the true adventure unobtainable.

The truely deviant , the repeat offender ,deserves our pitty. Cheating themselves.They only cheat themselves, no one else. So sad. The sucess and experiance of a Watertribe challenge is contained within you, not some numbers and letters on results list. The value obtained in your challenge can not be devalued by someone elses experiance.You own your challenge.

If you join the Watertribe and don't get it after a few challenges, you will be banished by your own accord , by your piers, or if nessasary by Chief , the lowest of lows.

The salty spray we all endure , washes away all the stains.

Posted 4 months ago #
BeaV
Member

Some more real good replies.

Just wanted to add that expeditions and racing have gone hand and hand forever. Often it's the little things that motivate us when we're tired and things aren't going well. Most folks don't get it and never will, WaterTriber's do. We don't push ourselves just because it's fun, it usually isn't, but we have a drive to keep going. But we do need a goal- it could be a goal to reach the finish in the alloted time or beat or own best or maybe even to best the best and be first. Awesome I say! But do it so you can be proud like SkinnyGenes stated so well.

Past historic expedition races that come to mind- the first to reach the North Pole. For 300 years people suffered and died to get there. In 1908 and 1909, both Robert Peary and Frederick Cook claimed to have made it. Because they weren't required to carry a Spot device, to this day, we're not sure who really made it and therefore who was first. We do know that explorer Roald Amundsen didn't want to be 3rd (he wanted to be first). So he secretly planned a new expedition to be 1st to the South Pole and kept it from his competitors. He was successful in 1911 and left a tent set up at the pole as proof. About 30 days later, an expedition by Robert Scott arrived and were so bummed out to be 2nd, they perished on their retreat from the antarctic (someone forgot to bring the PLB). That's my take on it anyway. I digress slightly but even back then, Scott was praised for doing it with honor and integrity while Amundsen with disgrace.

Posted 4 months ago #
Islander
Member

I couldn't help but respond to the comment on Scott and Amundsen. They were not exactly "competitors" but did "race" to the South Pole. Amundsen informed Scott of his decision to make for the pole after he had set sail in the Fram.

Scott was ill-prepared; taking ponies to a land where there was nothing for them to eat, disavowing the use of skies by Greenland Eskimos and believing that the Royal Navy had greater knowledge and equipment than any native people. Amundsen, on the other hand, was extremely well prepared with knowledge from the Greenland Eskimos, skis, dogs and much practice and training beforehand. As he said in his subsequent book, "We were never tired nor hungry." Scott, of course, is still there due to his extremely poor preparation of his expedition. (Shakleton's expeditions were every bit as bungled as Scott's, but Skakleton at least had a knack for saving the day when things went bad...)

Amundsen was only said to have cheated because he used dogs (nothing in any rules against that - there were no rules) while Scott was praised by his native country for perishing "honorably" while using man hauling labor to pull his sledges (after his ponies perished). Amundsen didn't cheat - he simply prepared well and knew how to lead men through good morale, wisdom and purpose. He remains arguably the greatest adventurer the world has yet seen.

Those interested in the difference that good preparation and mental attitude made then, and make now, in any expedition, should read Roland Huntford's book The Last Place on Earth.

Posted 4 months ago #
MisterMoon
Member

Amundsun was the ruthlessly efficient and pragmatic polar-exploring machine. Scott was the romantic tragic hero. I never thought of Amundsun as doing anything disgraceful.

Posted 4 months ago #
DaveOnCudjoe
Member

I have always carried a GPS but without routes and just a few, actually 2, waypoints. I consider them the greatest distraction to seamanship possible as exampled after their failure. The presence of mind to adapt as conditions change is essential and make over planning a fools errand. Give me charts, a compass and a GPS for position and I'm good to go. I still don't agree with requiring SPOT since many fail each year but that's not my call. Programming a GPS requires skills I don't have and don't care to develope so that I will never rely on such a fragile piece of equiptment. Dave

Posted 4 months ago #
JoeWildlife
Member

I keep my SPOT in a sealed waterproof pouch with silica dessicant packs...I thought this was standard procedure. Yet we hear of several SPOT failures? Now I don't keep my GPS in a waterproof pouch, but copious amounts of dielectric grease has prevented any failures during two ECs. I've been known to have up to two backup GPS stored away in dry bags...

anyway, the race between the two tandems was awesome to watch from my couch. Since Chief has ruled that no rules were broken, and actions are within the spirit of the rules...then that is the event you choose to participate in. Should you choose to run the course with charts and compass, that is fine. But your competition (if you choose to call them that), may enter the race much more prepared than you. Or at least prepared in a way that might be more efficient. Personally, I have a lot of tracks on my GPS and having them keeps me on track despite the brain fog. That is probably safer, and certainly more efficient. While navigation with a tablet and/or cell phone with apps seems interesting, I don't think I'd have the mental capacity to make that work. And there is no way somebody could send me a route and I be able to work it on my cellphone.

To each his own, seems to be the thought of the day.

Joe

Posted 4 months ago #
Chekika
Member

I have the original SPOT (model 1). It is at least 6 yrs old, possibly 7 yrs. I've NEVER protected it (I keep my GPS units in small dry bags), and it has survived and is still going strong. Currently, I keep it in a pocket on my PFD, but in the early years it was simply in a mesh pocket on my AI. It is possible that the newer models of SPOT are not as robust, but I'm always a bit surprised when I hear they malfunction. Again, my Model 1 SPOT has never been in a dry bag.

Keith

Posted 4 months ago #
IronBob
Member

I too have never had a SPOT malfunction. I had a Gen 2 device for the longest time with no problems. For 2 years now, we've used a Gen 3 device, again with nno problems whatsoever. However, we've always kept them in waterproof electronic device dry bags with desiccant.

Posted 4 months ago #
Aleutian
Member

The Spot Gen 3 is reasonably water resistant. I kept mine naked on the deck of the kayak. It got splashed a few times but it was never fully submerged. I had no problems. I've heard (and it makes sense) that putting them in a dry bag/box is actually worse because of the steam effect that results after opening the bag/box and introducing water to the inside. The silica gel desiccants should minimize that effect though. I followed numerous others' tactic of "sealing" the back panel with grease, or in my case aquaphor ointment (vaseline basically) because it was all I had with me.

Posted 4 months ago #
ZeroTheHero
Member

my Spot gen 2 has been through 4 EC's. Always in a dry bag with clear side. Been pretty solid results wise.

Posted 4 months ago #

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