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Ligntning EC Rigging Discussion

(17 posts) (6 voices)

Started 6 years ago by MicroTom
Latest reply from JoeVanGeaux

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MicroTom
Key Master

JoeVanGeaux wrote:

MT, thanks for the input. I will study more closely the Sea Pearl 21 design and rigging to see what can be transferred to my only workable platform for the moment, the Lightning. No budget (nor wife's patience for another boat).

I have grandiose plans for addressing the sleeping issue and the mast stepping issue, in particular. I also intend to de-power the boat to help some with single-handing, but I know there's going to be much balloon-squeezing, compromise, more balloon-squeezing and yet more compromise.

While wacthing your videos and many, many others I had a notebook nearby and noted everything that even sounded like a complaint, observation about rigging, comment on boat design, equipment failures, personal gear, weather, bugs, navigation, food prep, on-board sleeping arrangements and on and on. Hopefully, this information overload will begin to be sorted out as I proceed.

If you have the energy and opportunity to comment on the changes you and your sailing partner made to 'Hare on Fire', it would be welcomed.

Meanwhile good luck with your next adventure ... my shoulders and arms are too shredded for any distance paddling.... I know, that's another thing I have to address - rowing!

Regards,

JoeVanGeaux

Hi JVG, Starting another thread to address this topic.

Posted 6 years ago #
MicroTom
Key Master

This whole thing started because DonKeyHoTey had been considering entering the EC for a while. We both owned Sea Pearls but he was looking for a boat that would be competitive for a win in Class 4. There happened to be a top lightning sailor in my local sailing club selling his boat. He was an older guy and I helped him list it on craigslist and thats how DonKeyHoTey and I started talking about sailing a lightning together.

With the goal being to place as high as possible and no need to adhere to lightning class restrictions the modifications started to take place. DonKeyHoTey knows them much better than me but I will try to go through what I know.

1. The stock rudder was one piece. A kick up rudder had to be re-purposed. Our first two years we used a Sea Pearl rudder until it broke in our second year. This was most likely a combination of age and stress. We also broke another one in year three. That was likely due to using light weight hardware and a small amount of stress. We finished year three by doing some repairs and having a one piece stock rudder brought in as a back up. We did the deep water legs with the one piece rudder and the shallow legs with the damaged two piece rudder.

2. Reefing points in the main sail.

3. The lighting bought by DonKeyHoTey was all fiberglass and had a bulkhead forward of the mast. He added a hatch to we had access to that area as a storage compartment. More importantly the bulkhead remained intact and provided floatation on the few occasions when we were taking on water.

4. Oar locks were added in two places. One set so that the boat could be rowed solo. A second so that two could row side by side. In hind site its my opinion that side by side rowing (each with a single oar) was not successful. One person rowing is enough. Since rowing occurs when the wind is down The second person can attend to other tasks or sleep.

Another note. we never figured out a good seating arrangement in the 3 years we did the EC together. But in 2013 we passed Stuntman and Sonar sailing a lightning too. They had a simple wooden (or fiberglass) seat that went on top of the centerboard trunk and it worked well.

5. The coaming forward of the cockpit and mast was raised to help stop water from coming into the boat. This was done with light weight materials and was always prone to damage. In retrospect I wouldn't skimp in this area. Its a great improvement for the EC.

6. Inflatable beach rollers were acquired to deal with launching the boat. These were also left partially inflated during the race to provide additional ballast.

Hope this helps. I am sure DonKeyHoTey will chime in with some more. Hopefully Stuntman and Sonar too.

Posted 6 years ago #
JoeVanGeaux
Member

MT, this would be great for me in particular, of course, but also for anbody else willing to consider making changes to improve their craft.

Not in any order, but the inflatable beach rollers were the very first thing I added to my list after my very first viewing of an EC start on YT. Their secondary use as flotation is obvious for some but the 'sealed' gunnels and underseat areas of my Lippincott-made Lightning will necessitate me having to stuff them - its doable and I'm sure would be regretabble if I didn't!

The next thing I saw on yours was the two sets of oar locks, something I thought of before but yourrationale against a need for two sets is well-advised, I beleive. I was also interested in the height and placement of the supporting blocks under the oarloacks. Was that determined through testing or just a best guess starting place? Where exactly would you recommend the placement (assuming some sort of rowing seat is fitted somewhere over the centerboard trunk)?

The forward bulkhead is another idea I picked up from various boat design sites. The compartment with water-resistant hatches covers, I've seen on the Wayfarer (a lot of good ideas and observations from the several books sharing adventures in a Wayfarer).

The board-over seat bunking arrangement I was wokring on was the the spark to get me on the 'net to look for other blastphemous changes to otherwise stock Ligthnings. I haven't seen the arrangement you spoke about but I hope to have mine staddle the seats and the centerboard trunk in two separate (port and starboard) sections with an allowance to accomodate the centerboard when its drawn up (I will have to fashion a padded 'boot' to cover the centerboard because I know my head or other part will find it during attempts to rest.) I did preliminary measurements and feel I might be able to make the boards in separate and/or folding sections and stow them forward but will have to split the forward underdeck compartments to do this - the benefit to having the bunk boards is too great not to work that out, somehow.

Your suggestion for a taller coaming ahead of the mast is a very good idea, and very timely, since I recently discovered that the surface varnish was the only solid part of some areas on my splash boards ... so it got immediately removed to keep me from getting into a perpetual repair mode.

Your heavy duty kick-up rudder really looked great too. I have the brackets a fittings from another one of my boats to use as mechanical model. The one I have is good for the de-commissioned Force 5 whose hull was trashed in a past hurricane but its not beefy enough for the Lightning.

Thanks for all you comments and advice!

JoeVanGeaux

Posted 6 years ago #
JoeVanGeaux
Member

JoeVanGeaux wrote:

MT, this would be great for me in particular, of course, but also for anbody else willing to consider making changes to improve their craft.

Not in any order, but the inflatable beach rollers were the very first thing I added to my list after my very first viewing of an EC start on YT. Their secondary use as flotation is obvious for some but the 'sealed' gunnels and underseat areas of my Lippincott-made Lightning will necessitate me having to stuff them - its doable and I'm sure would be regrettable if I didn't!

The next thing I saw on yours was the two sets of oar locks, something I thought of before but yourrationale against a need for two sets is well-advised, I beleive. I was also interested in the height and placement of the supporting blocks under the oarloacks. Was that determined through testing or just a best guess starting place? Where exactly would you recommend the placement (assuming some sort of rowing seat is fitted somewhere over the centerboard trunk)?

The forward bulkhead is another idea I picked up from various boat design sites. The compartment with water-resistant hatches covers, I've seen on the Wayfarer (a lot of good ideas and observations from the several books sharing adventures in a Wayfarer).

The board-over seat bunking arrangement I was wokring on was the the spark to get me on the 'net to look for other blastphemous changes to otherwise stock Ligthnings. I haven't seen the arrangement you spoke about but I hope to have mine staddle the seats and the centerboard trunk in two separate (port and starboard) sections with an allowance to accomodate the centerboard when its drawn up (I will have to fashion a padded 'boot' to cover the centerboard because I know my head or other part will find it during attempts to rest.) I did preliminary measurements and feel I might be able to make the boards in separate and/or folding sections and stow them forward but will have to split the forward underdeck compartments to do this - the benefit to having the bunk boards is too great not to work that out, somehow.

Your suggestion for a taller coaming ahead of the mast is a very good idea, and very timely, since I recently discovered that the surface varnish was the only solid part of some areas on my splash boards ... so it got immediately removed to keep me from getting into a perpetual repair mode.

Your heavy duty kick-up rudder really looked great too. I have the brackets a fittings from another one of my boats to use as mechanical model. The one I have is good for the de-commissioned Force 5 whose hull was trashed in a past hurricane but its not beefy enough for the Lightning.

Thanks for all you comments and advice!

JoeVanGeaux

Posted 6 years ago #
ZeroTheHero
Member

I would love to put in some imput into this discussion since I too have made miles on the Hare.

Per and I slept aft. He cut out the thwarts so there was room.

Higher combing was a plus/needed.

Depowering may be wise however we were powered up even more than stock with a mizzen. We had the ability to fly 6 sails at one but I wouldn't recomend it.

The 2014 rudder on Hare was the best version yet. Kicked up, trailed back, could be set any depth. Super easy to use.

Oar locks need to be strong, we broke a few this past year

Posted 6 years ago #
JoeVanGeaux
Member

ZTH, thanks for your input.

For a higher coaming/splashboard, I would like to know what you envision to be workable using two estimated measurements: What would you recommend for a reasonable height above the deck if measured at the forwardmost end where the two boards come together to a point? And, another estimated height above the decking if you were to measure the coaming height at say, roughly half way down from the forward point of the "V" (to get an approximate slope relative to the deck)?

I really do wish to retain that cool sweptback look of the stock coamings and not have it look like I started to build some version of a squat cuddy but stopped in the middle of the project. (I know fashion should follow form for an EC-styled boat but something too drastic will force a re-think of other changes I am contemplating in that area of the boat.)

I saw in that YT video a closeup of Hare's improved kickup rudder, I will go back to it to see it more closely to help with shaping my stock rudder. My old Coronado 15 had a similar style rudder arrangement. It was a farily strong-looking cast metal fitting (magnesium?) but still developed some serious cracks when I took the boat out on Lake Pontchartrain in 25 to 30 knot winds - that's a long story by itself! At any rate, whatever final rudder design and construction technique I use I will assume that it will 'want' to try its damnedest at failing me.

Depowering will be a must. If this boat continues to be a solo sailer, I will have to sacrifice speed for safety by re-cutting the main and adding too many reef points plus, maybe, adding roller furling up front.

What aspect of the oarlocks was most troubling? its dimensions? construction materials? its location on the gunnels?

Thanks,

JoeVanGeaux

Posted 6 years ago #
SambaSailor
Member

Joe,

NRS makes a bronze oarlock for whitewater rafting that you won't break, made with 5/8" shaft. It is made of a strong bronze alloy.

http://www.nrs.com/product/1408/nrs-superston-open-oarlocks

For a good rudder, you may want to look at a Core Sound 20 rudder...it's all plywood and epoxy, relatively easy to make yourself and although it doesn't look high tech they work really well, especially when partially up. If the rudder is too deep, you get a lot of helm when it is partially up (a problem with the Nomad which ZTH knows about). That is mostly an issue in Florida Bay. Rudder failure is one of the most common equipment breakdowns.

I wouldn't mess with the rig much for singlehanding...a Lightning is pretty good as a sloop; have a good jib you can roll up and reefs in the main with a jiffy reefing system. Another option for the jib would be a standard lightning jib and a smaller "spitfire" or 60-80% jib that are hanked on (which meets the KISS requirement). Having a small short hoist jib will be a big help if it's windy.

You must be from the Crescent City or somewhere in the bayous of southern Louisiana with that last name...I spent some time on the Gulf Coast in Biloxi.

Phil Garland

Posted 6 years ago #
JoeVanGeaux
Member

SambaSailor, as a matter of fact, I closely studied the kickup rudder system on the Core Sound 20. I will likely wind up with something between that and what 'Hare on Fire' developed since a kickup rudder is one of the things that I had on some of my other boats and now miss.

Thanks for the heads up on those oarlocks. They may just fill that ticket.

I'm not planning on too many changes for the standing rigging, itself, but as far as sail handling goes, I am planning on a jiffy reefing system and probably some lazy jacks (having fought with flogging sails and losing too often). For the headsails, I am moving in the general direction you noted with a focus on keeping my options open for dealing with equipment failures and crappy weather. I may even specifically rig for a storm jib if the extra rigging ads redundancy but doesn't clutter or foul other things up too much. I will have to experiment with what combination works.

Yes, I was born in downtown New Orleans, in fact, and raised in the 'burbs' - also translated as 'the sticks', 'the marshes' and of course, 'the swamps' between New Orleans and Baton Rouge. My great grandfather was from Lafitte, LA and a boatbuilder, mostly he built hand-carved canoes ("pirogues") professionally. He also was among the first to start building flat-sided priogues as soon as modern plywood became commericially available but people wanted his hand carved boats far more often than not. He helped organize (and won) the first pirogue race in 1935 in Barataria Bay. The 'VanGeaux' thing goes way back to when I 'went rogue' on a highschool art assignment. ... sorry for going off topic but I got pushed!

It appears to have been a good decision to join this site. I'd still like to hear some thoughts on spray skirts, dodgers, coaming designs, etc to help keep the water where it belongs.

Thanks for the advice. Keep it coming.

JoeVanGeaux

Posted 6 years ago #
ZeroTheHero
Member

I am going to email Per (DonKeyHoTey) about this thread as I am sure he would love to dive in.

On Hare the combing is made of a few pieces of thin wood or the like. There is a copious amount of tape involved at the joint/point. It is angled forward and at the center is 2x the hight of the standard. It is significant in height.

The version of the rudder we carried in 2014 was very well don e and performed admirably. I have pics of it pre race and can pass those along.

For oar locks we had three locations we could row from. The weekest were located for stand up, forward facing rowing. These were added late and not tested. They failed as there was excessive leverage on the fittings from the extensions they were equiped with. Other oarlock locations were fine. I may have a picture of that too.

Again emailing Per.

Posted 6 years ago #
JoeVanGeaux
Member

ZTH,

I saw a pre-start "beach walk" video of the 2013 EC last night and it had a fairly good shot of the extended coaming on Hare that you told me about. It was, as you said, pretty substantial. Since mine developed some rot in the mahogany, I removed it and will use it for a pattern to rebuild one. I think I will add some height, extend it further back onto the gunwales and add a "nosepiece' (I don't know what that piece is called) to the very front of the "V" that angles down and forward to the deck to help minimize fouling of lines.

I am hoping to add a dodger to keep spray/breakers out . I am mulling over different ways to secure it against the weight of water that could come over the deck. I am expecting to find many videos and pics on the 'net that I can use for models.

Since I just finished a bunch of chores around the house, I think I'll start going back to look for the video that shows Hare's badass kickup rudder!

Later,

JoeVanGeaux

Posted 6 years ago #
StuntMan
Member

Joe,

Good to see another Lightning possibility! Sonar and I managed to finsih NCC 2012 and EC 2013, in two different lightnings. I think the only failure on the NCC with our first boat (1946 vintage with updated rig and sails) was the bottom gudgeon pulling out of the transom as we approached the beach to quick before we could get the rudder off. I spent alot of time going over the boat prior to the start, and this was one of the items I did not get time to reinstall. Overall this older boat (and the course)was a good shakedown for the EC. We did not push as hard as we could our goal was to finish both races. I do not have a racing back ground infact the NCC was the second time I sailed a lightning. I think it is a great boat for the race. Anyway, here are some thoughts after the two races. Go over every inch of the boat. Reinstall all of the hardware on the rig and boat if you are unsure of anything. You will have a piece of mind, reduce risk of failures, and most of all be intimate with the boat if you are not already. If you go solo, this will be time well spent up front. I agree with whats already been written above. Set up furling Jib, have a spare hank on, reefs in the main and jiffy set up. Leave the rig as is, if its light air, you'll be thankful. No need to worry about stepping, once its up you can leave it up. All of the bridges open, have a list handy so you can call in advance, our timing was not always great, we had to wait at some of them. We did not have a spinnaker, i did not want to deal with one and did not have time to set up an asymetrical sail. This is on my list for mods... Kick up rudder is a must. Make sure it is robust. We had a spare blade and the original just incase. But we finished the EC with the kick up, luckily no problems. We made a wood seat with foam pad to clip on the aft top section of centerboard trunk. This proved to be a great rowing position. 9' oars, chunks of wood thru bolted to side deck. These were about 1 1/2" proud of the deck with recessed bronze sleeves for the oarlocks. Dont skimp on the mounts. And, follow Samba's advice, get the good oarlocks, we broke one from our $30 bronze(?) set. We could manage 2-3 knots in 20 min shifts, while the other steered the boat. Toping lift kept the boom high enough to sit and row under. We slept in a tent, but I am going to set the boat up to sleep on. We spent too much time setting up and taking down camp. I am going to make some panels that can do double duty as floor boards and a sleeping platform on each side of the CB trunk that fit in flush with the bench seats already in place. The idea of sleeping aboard under a simple boom tent seems better than the bugs, and criters on shore. The higher coaming is a good idea to keep some spray out. The stock is good to shed the green water that makes its way up the deck. A dodger would be sweet! I ran out of time and $ to have this done. Getting the boat off the beach was a bit of a chore. We used three inflatable beach rollers and that worked ok. No getting around the weight of the boat and gear. Happy to send pics or answer any specific questions. Good luck and have fun!

Eric

Posted 6 years ago #
DonKeyHoTey
Member

Hi JVG. I'm just in from windmill-tilting and now in the process of preparing a substantive answer to your questions about the Hare and my thoughts on modifying and using a Lightning for soloing the EC.

Questions in the meantime: how old are you? How good a sailor? How experienced (and strong) a rower? Is your priority the destination (getting there fast), or the journey (enjoying the experience)?

DKHT

Posted 6 years ago #
JoeVanGeaux
Member

StuntMan, thanks for the input. The double duty for floor boards is a good thought, though I am likely to attempt at "floating" another fixed floor. I will put in closed-cell foam for added flotation underneath since the old floor supports were rotted and had to be removed anyway. I will probly carry separate sleeping boards since I am orignally from Louisiana and no stranger to bugs and critters - that doesn't mean I should be immune to them, to the contrary, I despise them and would rather sleep offshore, even if uncomfortable, than deal with them! I would like to see how the floor boards as a sleep platform would work (mine is a 1973 model Lippincott hull number 12340 with no wood but the coamings and some mahogany planks screwed into glassed-in wood strips on the floor of the boat with an open section for the self-bailers, so there may be a lot of FG in the way.

I will not likely carry spinnaker as I used to be on the foredeck of larger boats during races and, frankly, I see that as both a luxury and too specialized a piece of equipment that's more fitting for round-the-buoys races and extended cruising, or easy weather cruising, and given the trouble I've seen them cause ... it ain't likley gonna happen for me - especially if single-handed. I'd have to become really comfortable with the boat and sailing conditions to even attempt it. Twin headsails may be the closest I get to heavy canvas on the foredeck.

Your comment about no mast-stepping involved is curious since I've seen many videos where the masts were taken down on Class 4 boats.

Pics would be great but I don't know how to get them through this site.

DKHT, I am greatly anticipating your comments!

For your questions, I am old enough to have retired early but by no means a couch potato. I am a self-taught sailor having learned over 25 years ago by reading, trying, reading, trying some more then racing as a means to improving my boat-handling. I learned on a plastic-covered foam board called a Snark, then got a Coronado 15 and raced it and beat some experienced guys (okay, maybe they were just not as good as they thought they were) then got my Lightning (and still have it) then got (and still have) a Ranger 23. (A few other boats are not on the list cause I'm starting to think my wife is right about me having too many!)

Skill level might all be in the mind of the sailor. I took my Coronado nine miles out in open water in very cold February day in 25+ knot winds (someone on shore said it was 35+ kts but he lacked credibility in my mind) and 3 to 4 foot seas, suffered at least 3 swampings from over the shoulder waves, broken tiller, got cracks in my rudder casting and kept the boat upright... but I think that speaks more towards foolishness and luck rather than skill?? So for skill, I'd say I can sail pretty well and learn quickly. (The bigger the mistake the quicker I learn! Other smaller mistakes I have to repeat numerous times before learning.)

I'm not an edurance rower/paddler but learned when I was about 10ish in small, exceptionally narrow, boats on the Lousiana bayous at the grandparent's place on Barataria Bay in Lafitte, LA. However, you can learn to develop some speed when needed if there are too many sets of red, glowing eyes on the water at night, though.

My priority is to finish and enjoy the experience and end up with a better boat... BUT, I couldn't guarantee some highly competitive streak wouldn't come out if I started feeling too complacent, either. This would not be too likely in this event, since I just can't see that much adrenaline dumping in my system for several days straight!

JVG

Posted 6 years ago #
StuntMan
Member

Joe.
The old check point one required unstepping the mast. As of 2013(?) the new check point one is free of any obstruction.
Eric

Posted 6 years ago #
JoeVanGeaux
Member

StuntMan,

Wow, no required takedowns, huh? Where's the challenge in that?

I thought that was going to be one of my advantages since I have never had help stepping my Lightning and got pretty good at it. Doing this on the water is, of course, not as pretty and might even deserve to be on some YouTube "Sailing Fails", so all things considered I'll try my best to pretend that's a good thing (no, I'm not quoting an infamous, insider stock trader, here).

I see all over the 'net where peeps claim it takes two or even three to step a Lightning (???) They are obviously not very determined or resourceful. Those that require three probably shouldn't even be sailing in a Lightning. (Ha!, nothing like a little smack talk before noon! I'm going get another cup of coffee and maybe I'll settle down.)

I'm still bent on perfecting a system for mast takedown while on the water for safety reasons in case there's some threatening buttugly weather. I intentionally use the word "threatens" cuz, as you know, if its already here, all you'd have left to do lament your bad (in)decision about not having readied the boat. I am trying my darndest to learn from those whopping big mistakes of others!

JVG

Posted 6 years ago #
DonKeyHoTey
Member

JVG, I am ready to throw my computer through the window because my VERY long, detailed response just got wiped out. Bah Humbug Bah Humbug Bah Humbug.

This is a complicated topic (the Lightning's a complicated boat, and mine is even more so), and I've No time or patience to re-construct my post (flunked typing class). You'll have to give me a jingle on the phone. Contact me offline at lorentzenp@aol.com for my telephone #.

DKHT (Per Lorentzen)

Posted 6 years ago #
JoeVanGeaux
Member

Per,

I sent an email to you last night. Thanks for your offer and efforts to help!

Anyone else with ideas or pictures of modifications to their Lightning is also welcome to send to my email address below.

I will be visiting (wife's relatives) in theTampa area sometime in middle August so I hope to, at least, check out Fort DeSoto!

JVG (Rand Duhé), Magnolia, TX

randduhe@gmail.com

Posted 6 years ago #

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