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Kayak Search Advice

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Started 6 years ago by SquirrelyPaddles
Latest reply from kayakman7

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SquirrelyPaddles
Member

Hello All,

I've been in search of a new to me sea kayak in the 17' range. I've always paddled plastic boats due to their durability. My current boat, 17' Perception Sea Lion, is a bit of a hog and her age is starting to show (gashes, gouges, and overall flex). My current uses for my boat are distance paddles, camping, paddle sailing, and rolling. I've been searching craigslist and browsing the used inventories of my local kayak outfitters. I'm searching used inventories because I'm on a tight budget. The most common kayaks I see on the EC rosters are P&H, QCC, Seaward, and Epic. P&H and Seaward seem to be the most common craigslist listings.

Now for the questions to my fellow class 1 watertribers:

What is your background and what are you paddling?

Which fiberglass/composite boats should I avoid?

Thank you for your time, opinions, and advice.

~SP

Posted 6 years ago #
SeaDawg
Member

For Class 1 I very much like the P&H Cetus MV I've used but may use the HV for the longer waterline and gear hauling capability of WT Kit + my 200lbs.

Another used model to put on the shopping list would be an Impex Force 4 or Force 5. 18'x20.75"

U sed Impex Force 5

Where abouts are you located? That might help in suggesting resources that are close to you.

See you on the water,

SeaDawg

Posted 6 years ago #
Shag
Member

If you are within reasonable distance of Florida there are some good used boats from $600 up. P&H Capella ?

Try kayaksbybo.com

Posted 6 years ago #
SquirrelyPaddles
Member

Hi SeaDawg,

Thank you for the info. I'm located in Fort Myers, Fl and have been searching listings from Naples to Tampa. I've had a few hits for P&H boats (Cetus, Quest, and Capella) over the past couple weeks, but they seem to move quickly. I found an older Seaward Ascent I plan to call about tomorrow.

I recently looked at an Impex, the owner was asking too much ($300 less than new for a 6 yr old boat). Great looking boat. For each boat I find, I've been reading reviews from paddling.net. I'm hoping to visit one of the local outfitters next week to test paddle some boats.

Posted 6 years ago #
SquirrelyPaddles
Member

Thanks Shag. I'll give the website a look tonight.

Posted 6 years ago #
Katamount
Member

Go visit Russell at Sweetwater up in St. Pete. He's well versed in what is appropriate for the EC and very well stocked with both new and used. I bought a demo Stellar S18R from him this spring for a really good price. At that time he had several used boats that would all have been excellent for the EC and a few at ridiculously good prices.

Posted 6 years ago #
BustedRudder
Member

SquirrelyPaddles,

Wow! A perception sea lion! Is it green? That was my first kayak and I still miss it when my composite bottom is marred by an oyster!

Since: 3 Necky composites, 1QCC, 2 18x, 1 Kayakpro Marlin.

There are no kayaks to avoid, just be aware of their differences. The lightest are "cored" boats which are more delicate (oysters) and difficult to repair. The QCC is very rugged though a bit heavier and does not have the footbrace / gas peddle system that many have gone to which is essential in my book for good forward stroke technique.

When looking at "lenghth" it is waterline you are looking for. Boats with long raked bows /sterns have 1-2 less waterline.Your Sea Lion at 17 nets closer to 16 while Epic/QCC/Kayakpro and likely the rest seem to come in at 18.

I've modified both my Epic and Kayakpro for a dayhatch. Unless too good a deal to pass up, I would not buy without.

Good luck! Paddle anything you can get your butt in:)

Posted 6 years ago #
Scareman
Member

Seaward quality is excellent!

OneEyedJake paddles an Ascente and is near you. In fact he may have two now.

I solo paddle my Passat tandem. I am ordering/designing my new Replacement kayak right now from Seaward. The moving company crushed my current Passat one month ago.

Posted 6 years ago #
SquirrelyPaddles
Member

Katamount- Thanks for the recommendation. I shot him an email.

BustedRudder- Funny, but no she's blue. Its a 1999 that I aquired a few years back. The bottom is starting to show her age and is begining to get soft in a couple of places. I did a 20 mile paddle down the Peace River a month ago and I was fairly thankful for the plastic bottom. Water levels were very low in some places causing us to get out and walk/drag the boats. Its been a great boat. I had no issues with her in Tampa Bay in March. You're correct on the waterline, its very close to the 16' mark, and the day hatch is a nice luxury. When you say "gas peddle footbrace" do you mean something like a smarttrack rudder system where the footbraces lock in place? If so, I agree. Good foot braces are a must, not only for proper paddling techniques but also for nailing that roll when you capsize. My current Rudder system is set up where the entire peg moves so you loose alot of power.

Scareman- I think I saw OneEyeJakes's Ascente in Key Largo in March. It was a very nice looking boat. So sorry for loss. Hard to believe they crushed your boat.

Posted 6 years ago #
BustedRudder
Member

The smartrack is an easy upgrade from the moving pegs like in Neckys or your sea lion and I would highly recommend it.

This is the Onno aftermarket system which is similar to what Epic and others use. Having the feet together feels more natural once you get used to it and seems to aid in rotation IMHO

Posted 6 years ago #
Fatfrank
Member

I'm certainly not an expert in this area, but I have paddled and own a good number of kayaks so I'll share my preferences.

Comfort is number one! I have some boats that I can paddle faster in one day than others for a marathon distance but for any distance more than that I am faster in a more comfortable boat because I can "Keep it Moving" by eating, navigating and taking breaks without having to get out of the boat.

Straight ahead crusing speed is important. A boat should be efficiennt at your crusing speed and typically that means narrower and shorter is faster at an easy pace. I think there is a lot of evidence that boats over 17 feet are just weight and drag you do not need on a long trip.

Comfort is number three and four too. The boat must turn the way you want. Handle waves the way you like. All it's caracteristics must suit you. Some prefer the initial stability of something like a Cetus while others prefer the rough water security of an Explorer. I can tell you that if you are not used to a boat that has little initial stability, then it may take a hundred hours to feel really comfortable in it, but once you are used to it you may prefer that boat over all others.

And finally I like plastic the best! I am sick of patching up the kevlar and glass boats and am selling mine off. Soon I'll only have plastic. It is durable, easier than ever to repair, and light for the same toughness. If you paddle oceans and lakes only then composite boats are fine and they last longer in the sun than plastic.

Hope this helps.

Frank

Posted 6 years ago #
Cwolfe
Member

Frank, Good post.

I am curious about your comment that

"I think there is a lot of evidence that boats over 17 feet are just weight and drag you do not need on a long trip"

as I find that contradictory to my experience, what I read and what makes hydromechanical sense. Although it is clear that given similar design longer length to beam ratio kayaks have higher top hull speed, it does take more ergs to maintain that top speed. What it the ideal lengh to hull does depends on what the boats efficiency at the touring or cruising speed of the individual. The more fit kayaker can cruise more efficiently with a longer boat, to a point. What length, beam etc is variable to the individual. I definitely do better in an 18 foot compared to a 16 foot for most daily fittness or LSD trips (long slow distance, dispite the hallucinations that every EC brings on on night two or three). The other factor is how much gear you are hualing. My Kruger Sea Wind is my best overall boat, comfort, reasonable speed, seaworthyness etc. I do not notice much effect in crusing speed between it empty or hualing too much gear, too much water. Where you really pay for the wieght with her is any time you stop paddling it take more work to get back to comfortable cruising speed. My FSK (Tiderace Pace 18) is fast and fun especially if empty. She is much more wieght sensitive. If I am on long expedition with her I have to think about every gram. So I guess what I am saying is that the ideal length is individual to the paddler, but long wetted waterline are generally faster and that most of the FSK and fast tourers are closer to 18 for many paddlers. But as BR referenced, it is the wetted waterline. This is a great practical article on the web that is good for us non-nautical engineer types that still have a little geek in us.

http://www.paddlinglight.com/articles/tutorial/how-much-faster-is-the-longer-kayak/

On a personal level, and that is what boat choice is all about, I also disagree with choice of plastic or laminate. Although there is a time and a place for plastic boats, expecially on fast moving rocky waters or playing exclusively in the surf or rocks, for touring or tripping I prefer composiites of Kevlar, Carbon fiber and or glass. This is my choice for multiple reasons, rigidity per weight being one. Stiff boats are more efficient. With every stroke, you give up some energy to flexing the hull. Given that an average EC is at least 300,000 strokes, I choose not to give up on that loss of efficiency. That being said many of the new designs mix materials and designs to add strenght and rigidity where need and reduce wieght by mixing materials.. I also find that the composites are easier to repair and modify than the plastics. Another personal reason I like owing boats like a Kruger, Crozier or many of of the layed composites is the fact that they are made by artisians dediateed to boat building and owning one is owning a working piece of art. Their support is something I feel adds value to my purchase. Although I appreciate the utilitarian values of thermomolded plastic, I am not as connected to them.

I guess it is safe to say there are no hard fast rules, only guidelines. There is no perfect boat hence the recognized Zero the Hero Syndrome, Polynavicular Morbus. My favorite anecdote in this regard comes from EC2012 as I was paddling my SeaWind. On day 3 TideTraveller comes cruising by me seemingly effortlessly. I think to myself, "That little###, next year I am going to be in one of thos fast boats!" Josh looks over at me and sees me at the same location in the race in my seemingly high and dry lap of luxury and exclaims, "Next year I am going to be in one of those!" The grass is always greener. The search for the ideal is the blessing and the curse.

Respectfully

Cwolfe

Posted 6 years ago #
Katamount
Member

And my 2 cents on the boat length issue...

Also consider WHO you paddle with. Going into my first challenge, I had every intention of paddling the majority of the way to Key Largo alone. Partly because I didn't really know anyone, but mostly because I'm an introvert and the thought of having company most of the time was completely unappealing. I was truly excited for 8 days of alone time. My boat was a P&H Sirius, 17' and no rudder. I hadn't paddled a ruddered boat in years and didn't feel a need for one. Even though I actually only wetted out about 15'8" of the boat, I didn't really feel too slow and happily cruised around 3.5 kts (empty).

Then reality hit. During the first half of the first day, I was very happy to join up with someone for a bit. I would have loved some company crossing Tampa Bay for my first time! What really happens is that you paddle with someone for a little while but eventually someone's pace changes a bit and you're back to paddling solo. Someone stops for a break, the other doesn't and you're back to paddling solo.

By the time I got to the big bridge in Sarasota it was early afternoon on a beautiful day. The boat traffic was insane and the busiest part of the bay was 3' slop in every direction. When I saw a nice yellow Epic slide up into my periphery, I was ecstatic! Never thought I'd be so happy to see another kayak! As it turns out, our paddling style synced very well and we continued to paddle together for the rest of the EC. We hit it off so well that we live together now!

I had always been happy with my Sirius, at least as far as speed went. There was just no way that I would ever be able to keep up with Kurt in his Epic though. Between the huge difference in wetted water line and no rudder, he would always have to hold back so that I could keep up. It's a rotten feeling knowing that you're holding someone back even if they're genuinely happy to do so. It's also a rotten feeling when the boat you're traveling with is *just* able to beat the current and you're *just* not able to. After the EC when we paddled together we would often trade boats. Sure enough, he couldn't keep up with me when we traded.

So at this point I knew that if we were going to keep paddling together we needed to have comparable boats. The thing was, I really like squirrely lively little boats. The Epic was nice and roomy and fast and more stable than my Sirius. And it bored the hell out of me.

What I finally concluded was that it's a matter of the right tool for the job. If I'm paddling solo I'm happy with a shorter water line and no rudder whether it's a day trip or the EC. But if I want to paddle with longer, ruddered boats, I'm going to paddle a longer, ruddered boat.

I'm not a powerful paddler. My technique is far from perfect. I definitely put a lot less effort into maintaining 4kts cruising in my Stellar than in the Sirius. You WILL get something from a longer boat. The question is, do you NEED it? People do the EC in 16' boats all the time and do it well. You certainly don't need a rudder. But I will say that when you're exhausted (not "tired", but actually "exhausted") and it's dark and the water is sloppy, you will find yourself reluctant to edge agressively in order to control the boat.

Think about what you will want in a boat when you are exhausted, cold, hungry, weathercocked, and just generally have the heebie jeebies about the situation you're in.

Lots to think about and only part of the puzzle. Sorry that there isn't an answer there, it's just my particular journey in choosing a boat. I love my Stellar and she treated me like a Queen this year in the Washing Machine of Death. I am certain I would have been totally unhappy out there in my Sirius. My Stellar takes me far, my Sirius makes me grin and giggle :-)

Posted 6 years ago #
frogy130
Member

Since you live in FL like me, for safety reasons the wife and I only choose to only paddle sit on top kayaks. It is much easier to reenter when you inevitably flip, then no need to bail out the kayak as it is self bailling. I have done the UM multiple times in my Skua http://venturesport.com/specialty-kayaks/kaskazi-kayaks/kaskazi-skua-ar-arx/
And did the EC in a simialar double kayak called the bayrunner.

The new Epic V6 looks like a good boat and there is one for sale near you. kind of a sit on top Epic 16 http://fortmyers.craigslist.org/col/spo/5054829522.html

For warmth you just need some Mysterioso Coldwater/Weather M-Tech Tops & Bottoms XLXS Carter Johnson turned me onto them great stuff. http://mysterioso.com/category-mens-coldwater-weather-tops-and-bottoms

Or the Epic V8 but it seems to lack the storage compartment that you would need to the EC http://fortmyers.craigslist.org/col/spo/5075826421.html

Eddie

Posted 6 years ago #
SquirrelyPaddles
Member

Thank you for all the replies and advice. I think this thread is begining to mutate fairly quickly, but lots of great information. The initial intent was to identify kayak manufacturers that I should stay away from due to poor workmanship or other issues. Instead you guys have given me some great models to look at and lean towards. Again, Thank you, y'all are making the search easier.

Katamount, I agree. Each boat has its purpose. The shorter boats are alot of fun when you're not trying to cover long distances in a short amount of time. Rudders are great. I love my rudder when I'm tired. Its also helpful when sailing and I'm feeling lazy.

Frogy130, Thank you for your input, but I'm not a fan of SOT kayaks unless I'm fishing or floating a river. I enjoy rolling, bracing, and the overall thrill I get from Sit inside kayaks.

~SP

Posted 6 years ago #
kayakman7
Member

Squirrely,

I have an epic 18x and a seaward ascente. I live in Cape Coral and would be happy to share a test ride with you. I started with a sealion and really enjoyed upgrading to the ascente and then the epic. Each was considerably lighter and faster than the previous boat, and I was finally able to average five knots on a twenty five mile trip.

I've been happy with the workmanship of both boats. If you would to try one or both email me at my username at g mail dot com.

Cheers,

Kayakman7

Posted 6 years ago #

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