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Forward Stroke

(8 posts) (7 voices)

Started 7 years ago by Wingkeel
Latest reply from PainenDias

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Wingkeel
Member

Hi everyone,

Yesterday I went to Fort DeSoto to play with Painendias and had a blast. When I was on the water, I finally felt the power of using my back and side muscles to drive the paddle rather than my arms. By rotating from the waste, I was able to develop more power than I could with my arms over a sustained period of time but the problem is, I tire quicker than by using my arms. I think it might be that I;m ust not used to using those muscle-groups and just need a lot more time doing it. The other possibility is that I;m simply doing it wrong. I filmed myself paddling using a Go-Pro Hero on the bow with a suction-cup mount. The page address to my facebook is:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10202795259467538&set=vb.1382160516&type=2&theater

I would appreciate any feedback on technique you might have. I know it looks like I;m cruising along at 10-knots but I'm not. I didn;t have my GPS with me but if I were to guess my actual speed, I put it at around 4.5 knots, upping it to 6-knots when I was getting on it, which is still a lot faster than my SOT. I know it doesn't show a side-profile and it looks like I'm not rotating but I am. Whether I'm rotating enough is the question.

I paddled for maybe 10-miles and felt pretty beat-up from rotating constantly. While it definitely relieves my arms, it does seem to take more energy. I tried both the high and low postures and like the low better, simply because it seems to take less energy. If I were sprinting, I would go to the high posture, as I did when chasing down a tandem, yesterday. This morning, while I'm not sore, I can definitely tell I used those muscles.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions you can provide.

Posted 7 years ago #
KayakVagabond
Member
Wingkeel,

I recommend that you start by getting a copy of "The Forward Stroke" DVD by Greg Barton and Oscar Chalupsky. This will answer many of your questions and get you started down the right path so that when you take a lesson you will be ahead of the curve.

It's a brave soul who will post a video for review, but my hat is off to you as this is how you learn. Here's a few points that I noticed about your footage.
- Your paddle is upside down. Hold it so that you can see the logo rightside up. An asymmetric blade such as you are using is designed so that the beveled edge is down, to enter the water cleanly and help prevent twist and torque.
- Rotation doesn't start at your waist, it goes all the way down to your butt bones in your seat. Doing this will reduce the amount of twisting that has to be done with your spine. This is very well explained in the video recommended above.
- "Tomahawk Chop". Currently you are punching down with your top hand. Ideally, for a strong torso-rotation stroke your top hand will "sight the horizon". In other words the top hand, once you bury the paddle, should stay at the same level until the paddle is lifted from the water. Your top hand might be above or below the horizon, that is OK, just keep it consistent. When you "punch down" with the top hand your stroke is shortened and often the paddle angle is not optimal, either.
- Your top hand rarely crosses the centerline of the deck. This means that your torso rotation is limited. Ideally your top hand will cross well over the centerline on every stroke if you are rotating your body fully. When you do this the ziper on your PFD (and your navel) will move back on forth on every stroke. Your PFD zipper is not moving much at all currently. It takes time to develop a full torso rotation.
- Paddle path. With strong torso rotation your paddle should be planted close to the kayak and then flare away from the hull, so that when you exit the blade (when your hand reaches your hip), the paddle is about 1.5 feet from the kayak. Your paddle does not flare away from the hull -- your paddle stays close to the hull for the entire stroke . This may be caused by limited torso rotation and perhaps from using your arms too much (rather than your torso) for power.
These points all take time, and often require coaching to correct. Start with the video, and then you may wish to seek instruction. We had a Watertribe stroke clinic last year that was well-received, I'm not yet sure if there will be one this year, time will tell. There seems to be interest in both a stroke clinic and a rolling/rescue clinic.

Russell Farrow at Sweetwater Kayaks in Tampa is an excellent coach in your area that I can recommend without hesitation.

Greg Stamer
Posted 7 years ago #
Santiago
Member

Wingkeel,

Here's the video from that forward stroke clinic last year that Greg mentions. Greg and Marty Sullivan (SaltyFrog) were our instructors. The video was taken on day two, evaluating the skills learned on day one and giving a good critique of those who were there. As I mentioned this morning, when certain people give advice, it's worth following closely. Greg is one of those people. See you Wednesday!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iuBYZ9kr8A

Joe Spooner

Posted 7 years ago #
Scareman
Member

Thanks for posting. I had to have someone advise me how to hold the paddle right-side-up also.

It looks like your PFD pocket is too ful and too far offest such that your right armpit/tricep will be rubbed raw. It also appears to be forcing your upper arm away from your side. Consider keeping your arm closer, and unload that pocket and see how you feel. Maybe try holding a tennis ball between your inner upper arm and PFD to feel the difference.

The catch improved my stroke considerably. Just tonight, I paddled up the Kansas River at 4.3 mph surfing some nice breaking wind waves and then downstream at 5 mph into a stout headwind. I pause after inserting my blade at the farthest point as the blade dives down, then I rotate .

You appear to be leaning away as you pull the blade out, but I am not sure why. PFD pockets? Try rotating through your feet which will drive the rotation on your seat, knees pumping as you rotate, and maybe float the blade out as you rotate. Try some extreme differences and work your way back into a sweet spot. Try settling the blade in at the end of your reach before you rotate (not pulling) the blade. Rotate after the full blade is under the surface to get the best "purchase" on the water. After all, you simply want to scoot your body and vessel around the pole you are planting in the slippery liquid. You would not scrape an ice pick down the mountain as you climb, so plant that blade and move you and the boat around that blade as you rotate.

Consider keeping the deck clear in front of your cockpit, and you may enjoy that feeling of a lower bottom hand getting the blade further and deeper into the water before rotating. Put the paddle float on the rear deck, or behind the seat. You should not need it unless you are out of the seat and rinsing your shorts!

My magic stroke clicked and I went from paddling upstream on my training creek at 4.0 mph to 4.8 mph, and it was instantaneous after working on my catch at the pool at lunch - all from a discussion with my boss who swam at the Collegiate level. Please note, I expect to average 3 mph in the EC, and I am paddling a barge, my 22' kayak weighs 95-ish pounds without gear, and I throw my gearbag with all of my kits, cart, and up to 32 pounds of ballast in the rear, and then I am 250#.

What I have learned the hard way is to find your pace and MAINTAIN YOUR PACE into a headwind and against the tides - DO NOT MAINTAIN SPEED IN THESE CONDITIONS! I have injured my arms trying to keep up with the FCPA folks on a 30+ mile trip up and down the Suwannee (when I first met WhiteCaps I believe).

When paddling, close your eyes every few strokes, especially when getting hit with boat wakes to simulate night time paddling. Rotate your head when you paddle to work on reflex balance rather than your visual horizon off of the bow to make you feel stable.

Remember that trash floats all around the world, ducks float on top of the water, and if you relax and roll with the water, then you too will stay upright. You tense up and you will go over.

Practice in 15 mph winds with a rear quartering sea to build confidence with a buddy close to shore. Then try this at night. Paddling into a headwind is easy, anything else you should seek out and build your confidence.

Keep up this training and posts to dramatically reduce your learning curve.

Commit to the UM, and consider the EC.

Posted 7 years ago #
Wingkeel
Member

Scareman, I went out yesterday for ditch and re-entry practice before a few miles of paddling practice. While I could chalk up the experience to endurance, it did nothing for my form because I was too tired after pulling my fat butt into the kayak a half dozen times. Using the Go-Pro camera is helping a lot as I can compare my paddling to the strokes of good paddlers. Thanks for the great advice.

Posted 7 years ago #
BeastOarman
Member

Wingkeel, I think the leaning away at the finish may come from not turning in the seat, as Greg advises in his 2nd bullet. Will be interesting to see your next video from when you are not fatigued!

Posted 7 years ago #
MadTortoise
Member

get the forward stroke video either greg barton's [i took a half day class with him on racing in key largo a few years back] or brent reitz forward stroke clinic . technique makes an enormous difference

Posted 7 years ago #
PainenDias
Blocked

Hey, Wingkeel! Even with your paddle upside-down you were still kicking my butt going upwind. Enjoy the advantages your vehicle gives you in speed and maneuverability and make the most of them. Of course if you get in my way when there is any wind I can use I will run over you like a toad on the road! Woops, just kidding! I am only going to be making about 2 miles an hour paddling the Expandacraft Patriot canoe from the front position (yea! Front-wheel-drive) down the Harlowe Canal. But I have supreme stability with the Expandacraft hulls, can sail in 4 inches of water even if windward ability is suspect with the daggerboard and rudder dragging in the muck, and I can hang out in waves and sleep onboard. Lots of advantages in a compact design within the parameters of a shallow-water race course.

The friendly advice the Tribers offer you can really make improvement virtually guaranteed. One caveat is our age! We are not spring chickens anymore and both of us have suffered some abuse to the body satisfying our lust for adrenal stimulation in our long-past youth! Don't try to compete head-to-head with the hard-chargers in these events because you will only increase your chance of failure! In my wildest fantasies I know I could kick Sewsew's butt in my G-cat! Of course I am about 6 years older than he is and I might be 226 years old and he would be 220 by the time I get er' done! Be confident in your abilities, but also realistic about the dangers of overtraining!

I use my cell phone to track my training. And my Spot 3 (when it is not submerged)! You can download Map My Hike, or Map My Ride since you are a biker. It gives you information at a glance with stats and distances better than Spot. Work within the limitations your body has. My shoulders are shot, but I can maintain a decent average speed if I relax and enjoy the ride.

The most difficult training takes place in your brain. It is attitude that determines your having the greatest adventure of your life, or this whole thing sucks and was a waste of time and money! I am gonna drtive up to South Carolina from Miami in a gas-guzzler Jeep, towing a fat red canoe that only paddles 2 miles an hour! Now that is insanity! For what? A 90 mile race through some swampy coastal region with a crummy little wood paddle and an animal tooth if I even finish? Oh, yeah! I get a tee shirt too! Whoopee! Sign me up Chief! I will see you on the beach!

Posted 7 years ago #

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