I am aware as class 5 that Hobie Islands have their own class within that group but I was looking for an alt to go into class 3. From what I can tell all that is keeping the Hobie Islands from being entered into Class 3 is the rigid floats so if I put on my set of Watertribe Big 16 amas then it would meet the rules. If this can be done I think that it would make a competitive class 3 boat. I think they may be the best expedition boat overall when you include the price. At least the best "off the shelf" boat. They have had their issues as all boats do but the issues have been addressed and fixed in the newer models. (Thanks to Penquinman, Hobie Head Engineer) I am speaking of the stow and go rudder now replaced and the mast alum support ripping out of the front aka tube which has now been beefed up to go all the way through the tube. There have been two ripouts in watertribe events, one Pelican in 2010 and this year to BlackwaterBob. I have not talked to Bob for a while but last time I did he was being supplied the upgraded replacement parts from Hobie. Anyway they seem to be an option for class 3 if they meet the rules. I will need to get a “ruling” on that one to see if I can step out of class 5 and into 3. I really like the Exp canoes/Kayaks as well but... What do you guys think?
Expedition canoes vs Hobie Islands in Class 3
(36 posts) (12 voices)-
Posted 8 years ago #
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Dan, Yes it could be. When I was practicing for the WW I would put the akas in their bag and tow the rigid amas. With the watertribe inflatables they reduce to a small size, only weigh 11 lbs, and would ride in a bag on the deck. It should not be to much of an issue. The akas can also just be folded and left in place and held in with bungees hugging the side and out of the way.
The only other thing I see is that the dagger board (AI) or center board (TI) would have to be removed and a leeboard installed since rules only allow a leeboard.
Other than that it is a expedition kayak and meets the specs of 10.99 to 1 or less.
In class 5 it is just that we are chasing Tornados and Hobie 18's (beach cats) that we could never compete with.
Roger
Posted 8 years ago # -
Karank
MemberThe other problem that can not be overcome by my reading of.....and I quote:
<font size="3">"7. A lateral resistance appendage in the form of a leeboard to enable windward sailing is allowed. Other forms of lateral resistance appendages including but not limited to centerboards and daggerboards are prohibited. Any piercing of the hull for a lateral resistance device is not allowed."
<font size="3">I think this detail was cleared up about a year ago by Chief, although I think it was his intent all along.
<font size="3">Karank
Posted 8 years ago # -
Karank, Yes I caught that too after my orig post but I could install a leeboard instead of the centerboard without much of an issue. I believe that it does fit the rules then. I am also hoping that folks can see that it would be competive in class 3 where it is not in 5.
Roger
Posted 8 years ago # -
Karank
MemberRoger,
You would still need to deal with the boat being built with a "<font size="3">piercing of the hull for a lateral resistance device is not allowed".
<font size="3">Eliminating (closing up) the slot should eliminate conflict with the rules since "it" would not then exist?? hmmmm
<font size="3">I would clear this question with Chief. A home made boat could add or remove the case at will and still conform to the letter and intent of the rule as long as it was not there at the beach.
<font size="3">Karank
<font size="3"> w
Posted 8 years ago # -
I totally think that a stock AI can manage a gator tooth. I traversed The Nightmare and Broad Creek in my 18.5' canoe this year. You would need to keep everything lashed down tight and would need the Mirage drive removed most of the time, but I'm sure you could get the boat through with the amas folded in. You AI (or TI) guys could have your own little gator tooth competition, it would be cool!
Regarding a class 3 AI, would the boat still be stable with the entire sail rig (amas, akas, mast, sail, etc...) lashed down on top of the boat? Could any of those pieces be stored inside the boat? I wonder if it would be easier to convert a TI since there is more room for all the sailing stuff.
Here is a really good question for Chief... If a Hobie Mirage Adventure (mirage drive only, no sail rig) entered, what class would it be?
Anyway, as a new Sea Wind owner, I can't get the idea of a "turbo" rig out of my head. I already have a great mainsail (Balogh 5 meter) and I'm playing with the idea of adding a jib. The jib creates all sorts of extra complexities, but I think it might provide the improved upwind performance that everyone is after...
I know, I know... a Sea Wind is a paddling boat, but that doesn't mean I can't think about it...
Posted 8 years ago # -
I received my Hobie replacement parts in a timely fashion and was back out on the water in no time. They were very helpful and I've got to give Hobie an 'A' for customer service! All TI and AI owners should keep an eye on the gap between the bottom of the boat and the mast receiver tube, it should be almost flush. A loose cap nut on the bolt that threads into the molded-in insert will show as a gap between mast receiver and boat bottom. Hobie has changed the bolt from a hex head to slotted head with different threads for better strength. As you said Roger they have changed the mast bearing design so that it goes through the aka and is welded fore and aft. Much stronger! As far a the class 3/5 idea, would you have to remove the daggerboard or just plug the slot?
Posted 8 years ago # -
Macatawa wrote:
I totally think that a stock AI can manage a gator tooth. I traversed The Nightmare and Broad Creek in my 18.5' canoe this year. You would need to keep everything lashed down tight and would need the Mirage drive removed most of the time, but I'm sure you could get the boat through with the amas folded in. You AI (or TI) guys could have your own little gator tooth competition, it would be cool!
Regarding a class 3 AI, would the boat still be stable with the entire sail rig (amas, akas, mast, sail, etc...) lashed down on top of the boat? Could any of those pieces be stored inside the boat? I wonder if it would be easier to convert a TI since there is more room for all the sailing stuff.
Here is a really good question for Chief... If a Hobie Mirage Adventure (mirage drive only, no sail rig) entered, what class would it be?
Anyway, as a new Sea Wind owner, I can't get the idea of a "turbo" rig out of my head. I already have a great mainsail (Balogh 5 meter) and I'm playing with the idea of adding a jib. The jib creates all sorts of extra complexities, but I think it might provide the improved upwind performance that everyone is after...
I know, I know... a Sea Wind is a paddling boat, but that doesn't mean I can't think about it...
You wold need to speak with Mad Dave to get a good anser , but with a jib or hed sail wold the shape of the BSD sail benifit from a jib ? I meen will it creata a good wind slot afect between the two sails or wold you be beter going for eather a skooner or kech rig insted ?
Posted 8 years ago # -
Karank, I agree that closing the slot should eliminate conflict and I get where you are coming from Bob and I think that leaving it in place and pluging it with something temporary would be what we would like to do in the TI for the race, something like RTV or plastic weld. But I will bet that we will have to remove it(very easy in a AI-dagger) and then plug it for the race. That way if the plug does come out we still could not get an advantage. If anything it would slow us more. Macatawa, yes the boat is very stable with all removed. When I did my flip test it took effort to get it to go over. But all can go under the front deck and in the boat if there is room, it is quite large and a large lid. Depends on how much other stuff you are carring. TideTraveller, Pelican had a mirage drive installed in his seawind when he completed the 2006 UF so I am pretty sure that one is ok. I agree that Hobies would make a great WW boat, even if you had to tow the amas in class 5. Macatawa seems to think we could make it folded - AI. Bob, I really miss the TI!
Posted 8 years ago # -
Hi Macatawa,
A BSD Schooner rig is the way to go. I spoke to a owner of a Hobie Mirage Adventure who saw this BSD schooner rig sailing on Long Island Sound and could not catch it with his IA. A BSD Schooner {Brad Fin} is the way to go. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FZuLajJwiU&feature=player_detailpage
Maddave
Posted 8 years ago # -
Macatawa wrote:
Here is a really good question for Chief... If a Hobie Mirage Adventure (mirage drive only, no sail rig) entered, what class would it be?
A Hobie Mirage Adventure with no sail rig, no outriggers, and no leeboard or centerboard would go in either class 1 or class 2. Hobie has a small sail available, but I don't know the exact size. If that sail is <= 1 square meter, then it could go in class 1.
Posted 8 years ago # -
The question of converting a Hobie AI to class 3 is very tricky. Consider that class 3 was and is designed for those converting a class 1 boat to a sailing kayak or canoe. This sort of conversion has been done for centuries. Converting a class 5 AI to class 3 is not the same thing. Of course Hobie is the root of the problem because they start from a sit on top class 1 boat to build the class 5 AI.
Getting rid of the hard shell amas and replacing them with inflatable amas is the easy part. What about the akas? Is it OK to just fold them against the side for storage or do they have to come off? Since many class 3 boats leave at least part of the aka setup on the boat when all the rest is stowed, let's let the akas fold against the side.
But now comes the hard part. Sit on tops are marginal at best even in class 1 and 2 when the class requires an expedition capable boat for four weeks or more. Carrying the required equipment plus food for four weeks is not easy. But it can be done and of course the EC is only one week which makes it easier. But now add the full sail rig lashed on top along with the full amas folded up and lashed somewhere and I begin to suspect that the result would not be considered seaworthy in anything other than dead calm weather. Even if one could be pursuaded that it is seaworthy, would anyone want to pedal/paddle while being that uncomfortable?
I am willing to be convinced, but I don't recommend it.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Chief, as far as stability and seaworthyness goes for a sit on top kayak I am going to have to mention the Kayak off shore fishing craze going on. If you take a look into what they carry, rod holders, 4 rods, live wells, fish sacks, cooler, tackel boxes, etc and then take into account a 50 lb tuna on the end of a rod. Folks drag on board live fish weighting hundrends of lbs. I think 42 lbs (amas, akas, mast and sail)of lifeless non kicking equipment can be stowed safely and the craft will remain seaworthy. (some underdeck-sail and amas) I would also like to mention that the sail is easy to slide off the mast and the CF mast is in two pieces that slide apart leaving it like stowing oars or paddles instead of a 16' mast. That leaves tying on top only the mast itself in two pieces if the akas are left in place and folded which is really the best place for them to remain since they would be completely out of the way.
As far as comfort I suppose that is personal preference. If you stick me in a hole where I can not bend my knees but so far I am going to be uncomfortable in just a few hours.( I own a dagger kayak)
There is a myth about Hobie drivers have to sit in water all the time. That is not the case. There are two drain holes in each seat and the water drains right out. The back seat in a TI is really dry for the most part. There are a number of other ways to lessen the water that gets in the seat in the first place but I will not get into that. I can even losen the seat straps and recline. BTW we are in drysuits most of the time anyway. And when the weather is great you can not beat the water being right there, splash some up on yourself and it drains right out the bottom. Refreshing.
I just though I would start throwing some ideas your way. I'll be in touch and sent some more information. Others may become interested and help out with information for or against.
JollyRoger
Posted 8 years ago # -
It's not my cup of tea but as I said, I am willing to be convinced. If you or anyone else shows up with such a rig and it looks reasonable, I would be fine with having it in class 3. I'm just not sure what you gain. The Hobie AI and TI do pretty well so why go to the trouble?
Posted 8 years ago # -
This is a BSD 36 canoe classic sail sailing in 10-15 knots on a sit on top kayak. I call a sit on top a urenals cause they are always fushing with sea water. You can see me playing with my wet camera that got stuck in the toilet. Sit on tops are great for hot days and when you want to cool off but watch out for that nasty sun burn. http://youtu.be/QxiHk5UysB4
Maddave
Posted 8 years ago # -
Yes, Dogslife did really well. I chased him in the NCC where he placed first as well. He is on a roll. And TideTraveller finished only a few hours behind him and I believe it was his first EC. But they were still nearly 3 days behind the fast cats and 3 days+ off the single male class 5 record of 1day 16 hours. I believe that is a hugh gap that can never been meet in an Island. In class 3 the Islands would be competive and have a chance to win. If you compare Islands to krugers the speeds of both are very close to each other. A Island compared to a fast cat and the cats are twice the speed and then some.
It is nice to know that it could be allowed and it is not changing much on the stock boat. Just going to a leeboard and using inflatables and that is it and you have a real chance at winning "overall" in a class and even setting a new record which is held by a seawind and well within reach of a hobie Island in the right year. Islands are good class 5 boats and very proven. It makes since to me that they will make a very good class 3 boat as well.
Roger
I seem to recall Dogslife and Whitecaps speaking of running together or chasing one another or something like that. You put them in the same class and that is a race that I would like to see and here about. Am I correct or did I get names and faces mixed up? O well. Back to the garage for more sanding.
Posted 8 years ago # -
I have always felt that the Islands can use more boyancy. I installed TI amas on the AI and could not bury them. They fell like the perfect match, were just shorter than the boat by around 3 foot and are more in line size wise to normal tri's. They gave me more boyancy forward and the bow went under less. I have yet to try larger amas on a TI becasue I no longer have either although my son now has the AI and wants to entry his first watertribe event. It has the normal amas on it again but I would feel better and worry less about him if he had more boyancy. I have flipped the AI but never the TI, well except for practice righting. I would like to know if any other Islanders have any thoughts about going with amas with greater displacements? Good or bad.
JollyRoger
Posted 8 years ago # -
JollyRoger wrote:
It is nice to know that it could be allowed and it is not changing much on the stock boat. Just going to a leeboard and using inflatables and that is it and you have a real chance at winning "overall" in a class and even setting a new record which is held by a seawind and well within reach of a hobie Island in the right year.
Since the leeboard/centerboard is completely removable, I don't think you would have to change it to enter in class 3.
But remember that it is not just about using inflatables. It is also about figuring out how to stow it all in a seaworthy mannor.When the entire sail rig is stowed along with all required equipment, is it still something that anyone would want to paddle/pedal on a long expedition?
Posted 8 years ago # -
I looking to converting the A1 with the Chiefs Amas and using a schooner with BSD sails to inprove performance of the A1. Anyone interrested in that project contact me. Maddave.
Posted 8 years ago # -
I now have an AI set up as class 3 with Inflatable’s. I have also found out that everything except for the akas (they stay on boat and folded) will go under deck although I do not see a reason to ever have to remove the amas on the challenge courses, especially the NCC course. Storage area will be tight in the EC but not the NCC.
But care will have to be taken with the inflatable’s especially in the NCC where I have been around the course 3 times now and ran into oyster beds every time coming out of the Harlow canal. The good thing is that they are easy to repair- I popped one on a stump nearing CP2 this year and it took around 15 mins to get underway again. They were two chambered is there was no issues, just inconvenient.
I will be interested to hear about the sail setup using the BSD sails if you could let us know how that works. Personally I have always liked the performance of the Hobie sq tops and only thought they could benefit from a jib. Ours is now set up with a roller furling jib with the top wire attachment much like the Triak spinnaker setup. This way the main can still be furled as well. I learned that lesson at last years NCC where I took the jib down but because of the wind and waves could not get the mast back up until I got to shore about 3 hours later. Not a failure…just lessons learned. Now looking into a Triak dousing spinaker setup, I always have loved spinakers for some reason.
JollyRoger
Posted 8 years ago # -
JollyRoger wrote:
... But care will have to be taken with the inflatable’s especially in the NCC where I have been around the course 3 times now and ran into oyster beds every time coming out of the Harlow canal. The good thing is that they are easy to repair- I popped one on a stump nearing CP2 this year and it took around 15 mins to get underway again. ...
--- Interesting. What repair kit/glue did you use? I am hoping to attend the NCC, but I decided to hybridize my outrigger, using my old wooden deep-V ama as a single-outrigger but using one of my large Watertribe inflatable amas as a "safety ama" riding about a 12-14 inches over the water until a gust presses it down. Though I loved the twin large inflatables during EC2011, and I know they are pretty tough, but I was uncomfortable with reliance 100% on inflation among the sharps. -- Wade
Posted 8 years ago # -
Wade, I use tear aid and also http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.asp?pfid=1984&utm_campaign=shop_comp&utm_source=google&utm_medium=buy_now&utm_term=goog_product_1984
With extra glue and long lengths of repair tape in case of a snag and tear. It was like repairing a bicycle tire. Repair is still holding.
Most of my issues at the exit of the Harlow canal are at the small island just a few hundred yards from the end. See goggle earth or tracker. There the water gets much wider and it is easy to get out of the channel which runs on the right hand side of the island ( your right as your are coming out the canal). There is not much of a channel to speak of. I have tore up two mirage drives here and scraped up an ama fairly good when I got out to remove the damaged drive and got too close to the right hand shore. I now paddle or row that section. You will know that you are getting in trouble when you can see the top halves of crab traps exposed.
I must be coming out the canal at bad times. At the pier aprox. ¼ mile from the exit there is a couple there who says- “You better hurry” both times I have had trouble there. Oh, and if you do get out and walk over in order to clear the oysters as soon as you clear them you will sink up past your knees in mud. I lost my shoes there!
Your ama idea sounds very interesting and should work great with the light safety ama.
Roger
Posted 8 years ago # -
Good morning,
Im venturing into the dark side, Im looking at seting up a mad river canoe with sponsons, predominatly for fishing from , so we can stand to cast on the lake . down hear (Australia) we dont have much in the way of ready made fitings , althow I have acsess to a HF welder Im interested in the large inflatabel ama thats being mentiond ? why re invent the wheel .
regards Mick
flat earth kayak sails
Posted 8 years ago # -
Hi JollyRogers,
I have been doing sea trials with schooner sail rigs for 16 years and this can be applied to A1 and sea kayaks.
DogPaddle has one of the fastest sailing kayaks on the water. I have yet to find someone who can pass him without using a motor. If he was a strong paddler, I believe he would be unbeatable. Dogpaddle's kayak is light weight and light weight means more speed.
Dogpaddle uses 3- 38 expedition Batwings and double length amas to deliver this power to his kayak.
What gives him the advantage? The front sail acts like a jib and redirects the wind to the next sail for higher performance and the double amas keep him from capsizing. He can sail closer to the wind using a schooner.
Weight needs power to move it and Krugers are light and strong. That is why Krugers are so hard to beat with a great sailior. It is light and the hull planes when using a Batwing for power. Just look at all the records of past Watertribe events to confirm it.
I have rigged up a Long Haul Mark 2 and a Tofino with a schooner sail rig with the same effect but I used Boss outriggers and a hiking seat to compensate for the larger sail area. I will post videos of Batwing schooners and you can see how they perform.
If anyone wants a demo on a schooner, contact me. I will post the events on the Watertribe that I will attend.
Maddave
Posted 8 years ago # -
Hi Fek,
Use the Boss outriggers for fishing. Fisherman have been using my Boss outriggers for fishing for years on the Hudson.
The outriggers have survived 40 knots with sails.
The fisherman stand up in their fishing kayaks without any problems.
You are right, you do not have to reinvent the outrigger, oh I meant the wheel.
Maddave
Posted 8 years ago # -
maddave440 wrote:
Hi JollyRogers,
I have been doing sea trials with schooner sail rigs for 16 years and this can be applied to A1 and sea kayaks.
DogPaddle has one of the fastest sailing kayaks on the water. I have yet to find someone who can pass him without using a motor. If he was a strong paddler, I believe he would be unbeatable. Dogpaddle's kayak is light weight and light weight means more speed.
Dogpaddle uses 3- 38 expedition Batwings and double length amas to deliver this power to his kayak.
What gives him the advantage? The front sail acts like a jib and redirects the wind to the next sail for higher performance and the double amas keep him from capsizing. He can sail closer to the wind using a schooner.
Weight needs power to move it and Krugers are light and strong. That is why Krugers are so hard to beat with a great sailior. It is light and the hull planes when using a Batwing for power. Just look at all the records of past Watertribe events to confirm it.
I have rigged up a Long Haul Mark 2 and a Tofino with a schooner sail rig with the same effect but I used Boss outriggers and a hiking seat to compensate for the larger sail area. I will post videos of Batwing schooners and you can see how they perform.
If anyone wants a demo on a schooner, contact me. I will post the events on the Watertribe that I will attend.
Maddave
with dubel amas lee bords ect..ect.. ect... is it still realy a kayak ???????the definition of a kayak is a deked in boat that can be roled shorly its morphed into a diferant kind of expodition boat ?Are the AI a canoe or a trimaran ? arnt the traditional tags geting a bit blerd with what we are doing to theas boats ? we need to mesure apels againsrt apples hence the diferant racing clases and handycaps . DogPaddles kayak cant be comperd to Kiwi berds , or a standard Kruger . pleas dont get me rong , I think its a good thing to modify , (it keeps peopal like me and Mad Dave in a job ) but the question for me is still ther, when dose a kayak /canoe that can be sailed become a sail boat that can be paddled ?
Posted 8 years ago # -
<h1 class="entry-title">
Hi Fek, I quoted the Chief on his concept of the Watertribe.<!-- .entry-header -->
Expedition-Style Adventure Racing In Small Boats“The purpose of WaterTribe is to encourage the development of boats, equipment, skills and human athletic performance for safe and efficient coastal cruising using minimal impact human and wind powered watercraft based on sea kayaks, canoes, and small sailboats.” ~ Chief, February 2000
Posted 8 years ago #
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