EC2015 and UM2015 Derbies Start Soon - Changes

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EC2015 and UM2015 Derbies Start Soon - Changes

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Started 7 years ago by Chief
Latest reply from feralcat

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Chief
Coastal Vagabond

The derbies for the EC2015 and UM2015 start next Monday, October 13, 2014.

The awards are being changed a bit so you should go to the Derby page and look at the Overview section. If you are new to the derby, please checkout the other tabs as well.

I have heard many times that a WaterTribe Challenge is a Life Changing Experience. The associated derbies are a Body Changing Experience. If you do the derby from day one and log points every single day, you will lose weight, gain muscle, and increase stamina. Take a front and side facing picture before and after and you will be pleasantly surprised.

You will also gain skill in your boat of choice and figure out that damn SPOT. You will start to sort through your equipment and learn to pack it more efficiently. You will be ready for the challenge on March 7, 2015. You might even win some prize money.

By popular demand, the max points earned per day is increasing from 6.5 to 8.0 points. This means you get full points for two one-hour workouts. You still get one day per week to earn maximum points using the SPOT. On your big day you can normally expect to earn 20-25 points.

Remember it's important to have one or two rest days per week. But even on "rest" days you can earn 8 points. Do a one hour yoga session and a one hour walk. An "easy" 8 points and recovery for your double CrossFit days or hard trail runs and long paddles.

Try to get your friends signed up and get ready for the derby next Monday.

P.S. You have to be signed up for one of the events AND have a SPOT configured and showing up in the mapper in order to log derby points even if the points you are trying to log do not involve a SPOT.

http://www.watertribe.com/Events/Derby/Default.aspx

Posted 7 years ago #
DeadCat
Blocked

Chief, does the change in max points per day also allow one to get them by using the SPOT with a loaded boat. For example, can we earn 20 - 25 points on our "big" SPOT day and still earn 8.0 points per day on our "Little" SPOT days?

DeadCat

Posted 7 years ago #
Chief
Coastal Vagabond

Yes, you can earn the max daily 8 points by any method. Basically you would just enter your SPOT points as normal. The system will examine your points for that week. If the points entered are higher than previous points in that week, the previous points will be capped at 8 and the higher point will be entered.

Here is an example:

Monday - a one hour run and a gym workout earns 8 points.

Tuesday - A couple of hours paddling with SPOT earns 9.5 points

Then on Wednesday you paddle for several hours and earn 25 points.

Tuesday your point total would be capped at 8.0 points and Wednesday you would get 25 points. Your score for the week so far would look like this:

Monday - 8
Tuesday - 8
Wednesday - 25

Subsequent paddles would be capped at 8 points unless they exceeded 25 points.

For new derby participants, this capping might seem a little weird and a bit unfair. The intent is to make the derby fair for those unfortunate souls who still have to work for a living while us retired folks get to train as much as we like.

The next thought for new derby participants is "ya, but how can I train two hours a day and still work?" That is up to you. But in my younger days, I would do an hour of road work before going to work. Then I took a 2 hour lunch so I could spend an hour at Gold's Gym. Then I'd work late putting in 10 to 12 hours per day on my job. Doing the workouts is what kept me sane although some would argue the point.

Posted 7 years ago #
Chief
Coastal Vagabond

I am making another change to how points are earned using SPOT.

For any session that uses a SPOT you will be able to take the normal points earned for that session OR you can take points earned via the time between OK messages. One method uses distance and speed. The other uses time. You will be given the score for both methods and you can choose the one you want.

As many of you know, SPOT works fairly well if your course is more or less straight out and back. You will get pretty close to your actual distance and speed. But if you have a tight loop or lots of tree coverage and switchbacks, your distance and speed will be very distorted and you will get less points than you deserve.

The derby runs on the honor system so there will be a method to subtract time. For example, let's say you paddle for two hours and then stop for an hour. Then you paddle for another two hours. With an OK at the start and another at the end your time would be 5 hours. There will be a method for you to subtact the one hour you stopped.

This timed method will also work better for trail running, cross country skiing, or mountain biking. Hit an OK at the trail head parking area. Usually these areas can see the sky and your OK will go out. Then hit another OK when you get back. Run or bike in tracking mode, but using the timed method will give you better results for derby points.

Note that I mentioned still using tracking mode for your training. One main purpose of the derby is to get you used to how SPOT works and how to use it during a challenge. You should run your SPOT exactly like how you would during a challenge which included tracking mode and OK/CUSTOM messages all along your route.

Posted 7 years ago #
MicroTom
Key Master

Hi Chief, When will the 2015 EC mapper be live so we can check our SPOTs? Thanks!

Posted 7 years ago #
feralcat
Blocked
Chief, I need some clarification on your new “Derby” point rule. From my understanding of the new rule there are 2 methods of earning points while using a spot with a full expedition load.
1. Distance plus average speed plus 1 point for using the spot. Example: 20 miles at an average speed of 4 knots plus the 1 point earns you 25 points.
2. Distance plus time plus 1 point for using the spot. Example: 20 miles over 6 hours (no breaks), plus the 1 point earns you 27 points.
Cheers, FeralCat
Posted 7 years ago #
Chief
Coastal Vagabond

That's a good question and I have not figured out the answer yet. The problem is that I will allow a timed entry because distance and speed cannot always be determined accurately. But the original method limits the distance part of the points to 20. So how can I make the two methods fair? What if someone paddles 8 hours? What limit should be put on the time method? How many points per hour should be used?

The more you think about it, the more questions pop up.

The one thing that starts to make it fair is allowing each person to choose one of the two methods. You can choose the one that gives you more points. When I figure out the rest I will let you know. I am open to suggestions too. But the code has to be ready by Monday so time is short.

Posted 7 years ago #
feralcat
Blocked
Chief if you use the 2 methods I out-lined ,going hard and fast (distance/av. speed) vice slow and long on the water (distance/time) I would be better off slowing down and extending my time on the water. On my best derby day, I paddled 20 miles at an average of 5.2 (total points 26.2) big effort! Should there be a reward for going hard? If you add the distance/time option with the max distance being 20 miles the answer is NO.

We really need to go back to the intent of the “derby”.
1. Get folks to use their SPOTs
2. Get familiar with the craft they will be using during a challenge (this might be different during the years of a UF where work on the ground is nessassay).
3. Get in shape
The “derby” is similar to the challenges, some want to be competitive, some want to get a workout in, some use it to gain familiarity with their craft and of course some just don’t care.

In my opinion we should go back to the original point system 1 day a week, 20 miles max coupled with the average speed and an additional point if you were on the water. All other workouts regardless of time (still a workout needs to be at least an hour long) should be 4 points. My other recommendation is do away with the entrance fee incentive, just give a token to those who reach a stated point total. Example something for earning any points escalating up to a 1000 pts (for the EC, if you put in a significant effort you can achieve over 1100 pts, Ardio, Deadcat and I both have done that)

Cheers, FeralCat
Posted 7 years ago #
MicroTom
Key Master

I second what FC has said. I would also add cap the average speed at a maximum of 4 knots so we don't obess over how to build fast derby boats. Anyone doing 4 or above for 20 miles is going to be ready for the EC.

Posted 7 years ago #
DeadCat
Blocked

I agree with FC (and not just because he is another cat!) - simplify and incentivize! Let's get back to the basics as well as getting rid of the $$ for one or two each event's derby winners. As for incentivizing, you've already seen what we put ourselves through during the challenges for a token (i.e., shark's tooth, bear claw, etc); why not offer some sort of "Derby Tokens" for meeting certain point totals? I think it would be more fun and perhaps more folks would join in.

What does the rest of the Tribe think about this? Any other thoughts?

DeadCat

Posted 7 years ago #
BeastOarman
Member

For me, I would like a) ability to enter poitns later than Sunday night for the week, I often forget; b) some shorter-term goals as well. Maybe a monthly winner, or highest one day total for the week or something.

Might also be fun if we could figure out some sort of "team" perspective. Not sure what that would look like. Often thought about what that might be on the EC as well, maybe a combo EC & geo cache, or "find the nipper".

Posted 7 years ago #
SwampG8R
Member

Hey, I'd like a simple flat rate tax too. But seriously, just cap distance plus time at 24.47. At that point you get the same answer whether you use time (4.47hrs) or speed (4.47kts).

Posted 7 years ago #
Scareman
Member

The midnight Eastern time cutoff per day and the Sunday night deadline affected my points, but not the value of my preparation.

For some of my late night adventures, like 3 mile midnight dog walks to I-55 and back in Central time zones get reduced based on SPOT data and the programming.

I have found that my one hour derby paddles every other day, plus weekday yoga, additional core exercises, coaching rec, all-star, and travel soccer, the miles per day walking my dog, and occasional 15-30 mile days prepare me well for the EC!

In the past I haven't been diligent about entering points, but I was persistent in the Derby prep that has built a solid foundation. So much so that in EC13 I needed to break into full sprint paddles many times during the EC - including after coming out of Indian Key pass approaching Everglades City after our 24 hour paddle from Ft Myers.

Posted 7 years ago #
Puma
Member

Please explain step how to enter the derby for ec 2015 .

1. Do you sign uo for the event ?

2. Set the spot up ?

3. do you send ok messages at the beginng and end of a work out ? If not how do you report this activity ?

4. How do you know what type of activity I am doing ?

I know this seems basic but Puma needs is not the smartest cat in the jungle.

Thanks

Puma

Posted 7 years ago #
BeastOarman
Member

1. Yes

2. Yes

3. Yes, if you are doing one of the distance activites (sailing, biking, etc), and have tracking on

4. Every day or so go to the Derby points entry page on the old site - select the event (EC), your name, the date, activity etc and there will be a button to submit the points. If it is a distance activity like sailing, you will select a starting and an ending OK message from a list it pulls from SPOT and miles will be calculated. Your weekly points will show day by day on the right. You must enter any week's activity before midnight Sunday - if you forget or you are still out on the water, you will lose them.

Maybe or maybe not the smartest cat, but certainly one of the most dangerous!

Posted 7 years ago #
ExcitableBoy
Member

Can check point captains enter the Derby? It's a good motivator to get in better shape and even though I'm not competing I'd like to score some points and particpate. On the water Spot workouts will most likely be in my kayak so there won't be any danger of me being near the top. It's ugly when a life long sailor and class 4 guy tries to paddle a kayak. Probably won't see too many 25 point days but I can have some fun and maybe get better at paddling.

Posted 7 years ago #
feralcat
Blocked

Excitableboy, all but two of the derbies have been won by paddlers.

Posted 7 years ago #
Chief
Coastal Vagabond
I will give some of the points raised some serious thought, but right now I have to write the code for the new feature when using SPOT to enter points.

I did a study of the data and found that there is a very wide spread between the slowest speed and the fastest speed for derby sessions at or near the maximum points earned. The good news is that there was cluster of speeds right around the overall average of 3.82 knots. Outliers where in the 2 knot and 6+ knot range.

Therefore, the first pass for the new feature will assume 3.82 knots for the time between the selected OK messages. There will be a method to subtract some time if you took a long break. You will still get one point for using the SPOT. The miles will still be capped at 20.

Here is an example:
- The spread between 2 OK messages shows 6.5 hours.
- distance points would be 6.5 x 3.82 = 24.83 points capped at 20
- 1 point for using SPOT
- Total Points would be 1 + 20 + 3.82 = 24.82
Assume you ran your SPOT correctly and had planned a good course. The display might look something like this:
- Points Earned Via SPOT Track - 25.26
- Points Earned Via SPOT Time - 24.82
- You would probably select the 25.26 point option
But assume you are land locked and have to use a small lake. Assume the exact same time and effort for the duration of the derby session. The display might look something like this:
1. Points Earned Via SPOT Track - 8.62
2. Points Earned Via SPOT Time - 24.82
3. You would probably select the 24.82 option
Notice that the second option is still less than what your actually earned. There are other scenarios where someone using the time version would get more points than he or she deserves. But it is the best we can do given the issues with using SPOT.
Posted 7 years ago #
Chief
Coastal Vagabond

Yes, the race managers and cp captains can participate in the derby.

I will look into changing the cutoff time for entering weekly points, but really you should enter your points on a daily basis. Get in the habit of doing it daily and you won't miss any points. I have missed points myself due to waiting. This time it will be every day.

We will have trophies for the most points earned per derby year and for the total points earned over multiple years. We will also have some trophies for key milestones. These trophies will be given out at the Everglades Challenge after party.

What is a derby year? The final results for all events associated WaterTribe events in a single year. For example, the 2014 year concluded with the derbies associated with the NCPC2014 and the NCC2014. The 2015 derby year will start on Monday, October 13, 2014 with the derbies associated with the EC2015 and UM2015. I will announce overal 2014 results in a seperate thread after I get this coding done.

Posted 7 years ago #
DeadCat
Blocked

Wow, this is getting complicated! Chief, please clarify if this new option for using the SPOT is just for water activities or does it also apply to running and biking? If so, and as I interpret this change, one can just run, walk, bike, paddle or sail for 5 hours and 15 minutes at any speed going any distance and will get the 24.82...correct?

DeadCat

Posted 7 years ago #
Katamount
Member

I say that for every 500 points, one should earn a Raccoon's tooth. If every raccoon at Ft. DeSoto were to "donate" one tooth, there should be enough to go around. For about 10 years...

Posted 7 years ago #
DeadCat
Blocked

Kat - I love your idea; I wish we could keep it this simple - it would be more fun!!

DeadCat

Posted 7 years ago #
ExcitableBoy
Member

Thanks Chief. I'll get some points, lose some body fat and be a very fit CP Captain. My neighbors can laugh their asses off for another year as I trudge through the hood with my backpack and Spot. Maybe I'll learn how to paddle a kayak for more than 45 minutes. Good fun.

Posted 7 years ago #
Chief
Coastal Vagabond

The tracking map is up and running for the EC2015 and UM2015. It's time to get your SPOTs up and running.

If you are a captain without a crew but have two or more SPOTs, intead of logging two shared pages just have both of your SPOTs use the same shared page.

If a crew member has two or more SPOTs, they should do the same thing.

Posted 7 years ago #
sharpie
Member
So here's a real scenario from my derbies:
- I row my 800 lb class 4 boat around a small lake for three hours, averaging 1.8 mph (by GPS).
- My GPS says I traveled 5.4 miles
- My spot says I travelled 2.5 miles
Under the new rule, I could either get 4.7 or 16.2 ( 2.5 + 1 + (3hr/2.5m) OR 11.4 + 1 + 3.82))

Which should I choose?

On the one hand, my average speed it is much slower than 3.82 (but faster than the SPOT says). On the other hand, rowing around in a big boat burns more calories per mile travelled than in a small boat.

Sharpie
Posted 7 years ago #
BeastOarman
Member

We all saw the photos, and are wondering why YOU are practicing rowing when you always make Hillkiller do the work!

Posted 7 years ago #
sharpie
Member

She doesn't need any practice! It is true that I make her do all of the rowing, but it doesn't mean that I don't feel a tiny bit guilty about it :-). I'm just trying to get in enough shape to be able to pull my own weight, so to speak. I can row faster, but she can row forever (she wants me to get "D" sleeves and Douglas oarlocks so she can get in the zone while rowing without having to think about blade position).

Posted 7 years ago #
BeastOarman
Member

Nice, I like it! Another year and she will be ready to do the NCC in a rowing shell ; )

Posted 7 years ago #
Coastie
Member

I'm not really a racing/competitive guy (as noted in our two EC finishes....enjoying scenery and the weather:); however, now I am confused. First entry indicated that a second hour workout increased from 6.5 to 8 points. I guess Chief changed it back to the 6.5 point max.....because that is what it calculated for me today.

I don't really care whether it is 6.5 max or 8.....I just didn't know if I entered something incorrectly.

Eddie/Coastie

Posted 7 years ago #
deepminnow
Member

Chief
The coding for the derby entries seems to have a couple glitches, no spot entries. 1) a workout plus "2ND HOUR Any Workout" yields only 6.5 pts. 2) if three or more workouts are selected simultaneously the yield is 8.5 pts. Hope that makes sense. Toggling two different workouts seems to yield 8 pts consistently.

Posted 7 years ago #

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