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EC 2012 SewSew report

(21 posts) (15 voices)

Started 8 years ago by SewSew
Latest reply from KiwiBird

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SewSew
Member

Upon returning home I thought I'd give an equipment report / lessons learned summary:

1) SPOT: I started with one. It failed to recognize that I had left home. On day 2, I purchased (2) more SPOTs. One of these died just short of Key Largo when I capsized. The other one failed to operate and could not be turned off. So, I was 0 for 3. Most distressing was how my operating SPOT failed when I capsized and it went 12" under water. For the folks back home watching the event I guess the SPOT is OK, but for a safety device it seems hopeless. I was able to return all (3) spots for refunds as well as getting my $495 worth of subscriptions refunded as well.

2) Garmin GPS 76 CX: I started with two, complete with the full map chips installed. One screen developed some moisture spots but was still readable. Both battery chambers were bleading rust by the finish. One stopped operating. Both were close to dead. Garmin wasn't much help. They basically took no responsibility for their 'floating' GPS that isn't waterproof and certainly did not care that their leaky units ruined my expensive map chips. However, I did get them replaced by my supplier including new map chips.

3) Verizon Commando Smart Phone: This one is shock proof, dust proof and water resistant. Note the key word water 'resistant'. Actually it appears to be waterproof (no water in battery compartment) except that I couldn't hear anyone I called (although they could hear me fine). With the speaker phone turned on I could hear just fine. I've since deactivated this phone and have gone back to my 5 year old Casio GZone filp phone that is Military spec waterPROOF. In addition this phone lasts much longer on it's battery. Another Watertriber in Key Largo had the same Commando phone with exaclty the same problem trying to hear. Since there was no water in the battery compartment, Verizon will (after much discussion) warranty this phone. However they do not have any phones that are waterPROOF. My old Casio is my only option. Does anyone have any suggestions for a waterproof smart phone???

4) Uniden Submersable VHF: Not only did it work well, the battery indicator is still at fully charged. I can say that the NOA weather forcast sure ruined my run to check point 2 at Chokoloskee. When I left checkpoint 1 they forcasted winds to deminish to 5 to 10 knots and were planning to remove the small craft warning at 7 am. So, I went on a rhumbline course that left me 9 miles off Naples. At about 4 am the wind and waves started building. By 7 am I had 14 ft. breaking seas and about 40 knot winds. To avoid damage I ended up going straight downwind with mast alone. When the winds finally abated, I was about 20 miles past Chokoloskee, but still in one piece.

Posted 8 years ago #
DancesWithSandyBottom
Member

Thanks for sharing! I feel confident in saying that you'll have much better luck in the NC Challenge in September (you could not possibly have worse luck.)

For the Garmin GPSmap 76Cx: We've had success with liberal application of dielectric grease applied to the o-ring around the battery compartment and squirted into the USB port and onto the serial port pins. The dielectric grease we've used, from Permatex, is available at auto parts stores in small 1/3 oz tubes, so it's cheap stuff. Prior to using dielectric grease, we always ended up with some corrosion in the battery compartment or on the ports. So far, the dielectric grease has solved that problem. Never submerged one, however. We usually keep these handheld chartplotters in a pocket on the PFD.

--Paul

Posted 8 years ago #
MisterMoon
Member

My spot was the only thing that survived unscathed.

My waterproof ICOM VHF stopped working on Sunday morning. Removing the battery showed some water intrusion. Putting it in a ziplock baggie full of rice appears to have brought it back. It will get a waterproof case before I use it again.

My Garmin GPSMap 76 CSx died of water intrusion on Sunday night as I was navigating down the ICW towards CP1. I called Garmin yesterday and they were pretty accomodating once they got through lecturing me on what IPX7 water resistance really means. They are going to replace my two year old out of warranty GPS for half of their normal $110 repair charge. Getting it replaced for $55 was not a bad deal considering they could have told me to pound sand. It too will be going in a waterproof bag for the next trip. My US chart chip was unaffected. I was glad to find that I could get my track data back out of it once I got home.

My Blackberry phone did just fine in its waterproof bag. One cool thing about the putting in the bag is that it totally eliminates wind noise when talking, so it's actually better inside the bag than out. It's possible to access all the buttons through the bag so there's never really any reason to take it out except if you want to use the camera. The bag I've got we picked up at Walmart of all places for about $10.

Posted 8 years ago #
Chekika
Member

In recent years (last 8), I have always carried my Garmin GPS units in AquaPac or similar bags. I have never lost one to water intrusion. In fact, only my 7-yr old 76 CSx was retired, after the battery connectors failed. I have a friend who is happy with using dielectric grease. None of my (& my wife's) units have ever died on the water. It is not convenient to use a bagged GPS, but given the horror stories you hear after every EC about GPS units going bad (Dogslife had 2 $500 units go bad), a bagged, working unit might be a good alternative.

I have never protected my SPOT v1 from saltwater, and it has performed flawlessly and still is. Nor, have I ever protected my Uniden Voyager VHF units. One did go bad on the water after several years use.

Thanks for your report Randy. Yours is surely the hard luck story of the EC2012.

Keith

Posted 8 years ago #
Patowatomie
Member

Wow,

That's some list of failed electronics. Like other's have mentioned I have had better success with dielectric grease. If you do bag some electronic goodie, get some of the dessicant to keep it from dying a steamy death. I think there's a couple good cases for iphones.

I was wondering what brought you so far offshore! Does NOAA ever get it right? Dorry to hear about your bad luck near the finish. I would love to have seen the drag race between Sizzors and Mosquito up the East coast of FL. Thanks for posting and letting me live vicariously a bit....

Dan

Posted 8 years ago #
Ridgerunner
Member

I now use a Garmin 78 SC and before that used (and still use as backup) a 76CS. Always used dielectric grease in all openings and never had a problem, even under wate this year. Haven't had a SpoT failure yet. It was under water for a while during our capsize. I have an older Standard Horizon submersible (uses AA batteries!), and it has been under water several times. I use dielectric grease on all openings.

Posted 8 years ago #
Chekika
Member

Dan, the "steamy death" you talk about, just has never happened to my bagged GPS units. I never take any special precautions about keeping them out of the sun. Most of my friends bag theirs, also w/o problem. I don't think the "steamy death" is a problem. Leaving a GPS exposed to salt water is always a problem in my experience. The dieelectric grease does seem to work. I have not tried it myself.

Keith

Posted 8 years ago #
sailorbob
Member

Thanks for the interesting update.  I'm surprised at the number of equipment problems you had to deal with. I thought current equipment would be more reliable and have fewer problems.

I stayed up late to follow your progress when you sent the Help messages, until you appeared to beach Sizzor around 3am.   I could only guess what might be happening. Just curious, did you have an EPIRB unit, not the SPOT units, with you during the event? Maybe, this is required equipment. The final SPOT Help notice at or near the shore game me hope that you were no longer at risk of heading for Cuba.

The replies offer sensible additional precautions that are probably worth adopting.

Do you normally have two GPS units operating, ie. one GPS in a holder on each of the floats? I think you'd have more than enough to deal with when tacking that you wouldn't want to add steps to remove the GPS from the holder on the upwind float, transport it to the other float when tacking, and installing it in a holder on the new upwind float after tacking. If so, then it seems unreasonable to expect the GPS's to operate consistently after capsizing and righting, unless you're able to keep them from being immersed deeper than a few feet during the process. I'm not positively certain of the waterproofing specs for your handheld GPS units, but I suspect they're not intended for immersion at a depth of more than 3 feet for less than 30 minutes.

Please share what you've learned with your Sizzor boat. It's hard to imagine how you were able to survive the conditons you experienced.  What's the extent of the damages? Will Sizzor be repaired and return again for another attempt at the Everglades & Ultimate Florida challenges.

Before hearing a rumor that you'd withdrawn, I wouldn't have been surprised to hear that you'd made further repairs and were continuing. Later, I found the event rules and wondered if your use of SPOT device to signal for Help effectively caused your withdrawal from the event.

Great effort, kudos to you and all the other competitors.

Bob

Posted 8 years ago #
DaveOnCudjoe
Member

In 2010 I capsized my Sea Pearl in high seas. The boat was recovered and righted nearly 24hrs later. The GPSMap76 on that boat is the one I use today. No bag no dielectric grease. Dave

Posted 8 years ago #
Chekika
Member

Hobie AIs are very wet if the wind and chop are up. Here are some pictures from my last trip to Pavilion Key. Wind was about 15 mph from the east. We were heading south. The first shows a little spray but you can see my unprotected SPOT (orange) in a pocket inches above sea level. My GPS in an AquaPac bag is at that same level on the opposite side of the boat.

Now here are a few real spray pictures. Unfortunately, my waterproof camera had a streak of water on the lens, which sort of spoiled these pictures, but you get the idea. The conditions SewSew and the AI racers faced for hours on end in the Everglades Challenge were much worse than these.

Clearly, we and our equipment get a very heavy dose of driven sea spray on a typical trip. My SPOT takes a real dowsing. My VHF radio which I carry in a pocket on my PFD gets a dowsing. My GPS in a dry bag gets a dowsing. I feel the dry bag is the most protection I can give my GPS.

Keith

Posted 8 years ago #
whitecaps
Member

In my world with Garmin’s I need to keep splashes off of them on hot days or even cool days with a lot of sun. The older or more correctly the more it is exposed time wise the less it seals.

I have seen others and experience to many times water droplets from paddle splashes turning into condensation droplets on the inside of the screens. The steaming death is a real thing. Just have to have the right conditions and I have them a lot.

Put a GPS in a Plano box and open it to change something and you introduce moisture plus magnify the heat if setting in the sun. (Steam bath.) I have had them just plain lock up and quit in the summer in Florida from the heat in a box. Leave them in the open with water spraying or submerging it and they are not going to last long.

I have never heard of anyone replacing seals in a GPS we just run them until they die from water intrusion what do you want?

Grease helps a lot. For me a hard cover that keeps the water off and keeps my gps cool helps just as much. (I use a tones seasoning plastic bottle with the top cut off and every thing but the screen area painted white.)

I ruined my 1^st GPS in my 1^st EC. before Florida Bay. I have ran the replacement one in every EC and the UFC pluse quite a few fun trips since.

It now has green stuff growing in a port so it will sadly be put to sleep.

Just keep Florida on your left and kinda figure out the check points and you will be fine. No GPS needed if not racing Nothing to it really after all it’s just another adventure.

toby

Posted 8 years ago #
Chekika
Member

Hi Toby,

I've had condensation inside my GPS screen, but ONLY when I was not protecting it with a dry bag. The consensation on the inside of the screen does not occur in a dry bag--in my experience. Once you see those condensations droplets inside your display screen, the death of your GPS is not far behind (although it may take a couple months.) For the saltwater paddler/sailor, those droplets mean one thing: saltwater has intruded into your GPS.

Years ago I used to experiment with my GPS' to see if they were really "waterproof." They were not and I paid real dollars for the experience.

Keith

Posted 8 years ago #
DogPaddler
Member

I think exposing your Spot, Garmin GPS, radio, camera, or phone to direct spray and the elements is just asking for an early failure, even though some on this forum have had good luck and beaten the odds. Kayaks and other wet riding boats are certainly at greater risk.

Although my sailing kayak can be a wet ride, I've changed how I carry and store my electronics and had good luck lanyarding my radio, Garmin, and camera inside the pockets of my lifevest which keeps them out of the spray, rain, and from cooking in a hot sun. I have spares for everything. In the future, I'll bag my Spot along with some dessicant.

That said, I've had 2 of my Garmins fail to work in the spring after storing them over the winters without batteries in a dry house. The Garmin customer support response was "You have to use them, they shouldn't sit idle". Yeah right! My brand new Best Buy Spot 2 turned out to be a recall unit, so back it went for another .... I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Carry back-ups and hope you have enough redundancy since this stuff just isn't that reliable. If PLB's are not on the WaterTribe required list, they should be!

Brad

Posted 8 years ago #
DolphinGal
Member

I have to admit that although I hope to become better, I'm abusive with my equipement. And silly me - I expect when a product says it's waterproof, that it is, ta ta, waterproof. The first thing I do is give it a test ... it gets dunked in the community pool with an evening swim and/or taken out on the water within two days and given a thorough dunking ... a number of times that first week. Easy to take back if it fails because items are under manufacturer's warrenty for one and sometimes two years. If it's going to leak, it will probably do so within the first half-dozen or so good dunkings.

I DO, however, do a number of things to help longevity .... dielectric grease - cheap insurance as others have mentioned ..... rinse with fresh water after a day (or two) of use ..... a good cleaning after 5-7 days of use. Good cleaning consists of opening the battery lid and letting everything dry, then use a soft-bristled brush to dust off everything, paying particular attention to sealing grooves to remove any specs of sand. It's amazing that a few teensy specs of sand can cause a seal to not seat properly and hence let in water/moisture. A Q-tip with WD-40 cleans all contacts. Then dielectric grease is reapplied and case closed.

Even cases are tested prior to use. WhiteCaps saw my new iPhone case with a piece of toilet paper in it. Told him it was being put to the test before the phone went in. Toilet paper or kleenex readily shows any moisture/condensation issues. Once assured the case is, indeed, waterproof, then I put the phone in it.

I had too many bad experiences back in the nineties with putting a GPS inside a clear drybag. "Fog" would form on the inside of the case and I wasn't able to see the GPS screen unless I pressed on the clear plastic to smoosh out the condensation fog. Perhaps new cases are different and I should probably try one soon with a silicone dessicant pack to pull out any moisture, but for now my GPSs sit uncased on my deck.

So far (knock wood) I've had no problems with GPS, SPOT, camera (Pentax Optio W60), or VHF (ICOM M72 and ICOM M34). I did have to buy a new M34 battery two months ago when one of the charging leads corroded off. But admittedly, I hadn't taken it out of my vest and rinsed it off as I should have after a day's use. My bad, not the equipment's.

Angels watch over my equipment :)

Posted 8 years ago #
Chekika
Member

I've used dry boxes and roll top dry bags in cool climates and had so much condensation that I could not read the GPS. Currently, I use Aquapac type bags (Aquapac are too expensive.) Here is my current Kwik Tek Dry Pak bag.

(1) What little air is in this bag contains "freshwater" moisture. (2) I've stuck this bag/GPS in the freezer for 15 min and observed a small amout of condensation in the corners. The GPS was still readible. (3) Sun. On the boat, when underway, I don't worry about it. On land, I don't deliberately leave these units exposed to the sun, but it happens sometimes. Again, I've not noticed any problem. I've never had a unit shut down from heat. (4) These bags in time, do suffer punctures and small cuts. I have no idea where this damage comes from, but it happens. Of course, the bag then does get real sea water moisture in it, but even that is usually in very small quantity. It still has never seemed to be a problem as long as you dry the bag at home and seal the damage. (5) Ideally, I change batteries on land. Changing batteries underway may result in a drop or 2 of water in the opening. Again, when on land, I dry the bag with toilet paper or whatever is available.

My GPS units seem to last almost forever. I'm very pleased with this system.

Keith

Posted 8 years ago #
Chief
Coastal Vagabond

As SewSew said, "for a safety device it seems hopeless ." In our future events, each participant will be required to have a PLB in their lifejacket pocket. A SPOT will still be required for each boat for tracking purposes but you can just use OK messages every 4 hours or use tracking mode. We will continue to use OK/Custom messages at checkpoints.

SPOTs will be required to be in waterproof bags that allow operation of the buttons. The bags will need a small dessicant pack to absorb water vapor.

I know this adds further expense, but consider it life insurance.

This change will be in effect for the NCC2012 and all future races.

I will place this post in another thread and the rules after the UF2012 is finished.

Posted 8 years ago #
spidennis
Member

spot in an aquapack type soft bag is the way I go as well. Not only does it protect it, it helps to mount it under my front deck of my kayak.

but as for electronics for keeping you "safe", really it does nothing. This year with all the bad conditions and all the DNFs everyone made it back to shore ok somehow. Is that because of electronics or the resourcefulness and training of each competitor? yeah, sure, it's a mixed bag of tricks but pushing a button doesn't bring you back from "stupid", it's more of a "hail mary" move.

This might be a good subject for all the DNFs to report on. When It all hit the fan, what measures were taken to get back to shore with both body and boat.

Now with this much better forum this report should become required reading for all new tribers plus anyone taking a water safety or boating course.

Posted 8 years ago #
ThisTripIsNecessary
Member

These electronics failures are upsetting. My Spot is kept on the shoulder of my PFD somewhat out of the typical outrigger spray. It has worked OK, and as reported before it has seemed to work inside a small Pelican case too, but I need to give this more of a workout. The Garmin GPSMap is tethered in my cockpit where it is subject to a continual salt water wash (my outrigger buries bow a lot in a steep chop and sends wash down deck into foot well). A little corrosion on the twist-thingie that opens the battery door. The Olympus Tough waterproof camera I usually tether to the PFD and wedge under it protected even so has some slight corrosion on the metal rim of the battery compartment (and I religiously rinse this). I must use that dielectric grease idea. One thing I keep aboard is a little spray bottle to clear my glasses of salt spray every so often, and I ought to use it sometimes to rinse the electronics when the spray is down. I just bought a large Pelican case to protect the VHF, binoculars, and other important on-deck stuff despite that they are all rated waterproof, and this expense is looking better and better. --Wade

Posted 8 years ago #
Chekika
Member

I tell my friends that a Garmin GPS (& others?) will last a little over a year if unprotected and regularly doused with saltwater. The first sign of its death throes is condensation under the display window.

The designation "Waterproof" seems to work pretty well with VHF radios, Olympus SW cameras, and my SPOT v1. Everything else is suspect.

Keith

Posted 8 years ago #
ThisTripIsNecessary
Member

Well, any recommendations for a PLB? Do these also require $200/year activation fees? -- Wade

Posted 8 years ago #
KiwiBird
Member

I'm going to start a new PLB thread--worth it's own, especially if they're now going to be compulsory.

KB

Posted 8 years ago #

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