Does anyone have a good source for building custom rudders? I have a high aspect rudder on a trimaran that I have entered for the next EC, but need a shorter rudder to make it through skinny water.
Custom rudder
(18 posts) (10 voices)-
MicroTom
Key MasterI am no expert on this subject. Hopefully some of this will be helpful info.
Check out Phil's Foils for custom rudders. If you google them along with watertribe you will see that Chief has used them before.
http://www.fastcomposites.ca/site/
I would also consider purchasing a new or used stock rudder from another sailboat or catamaran and cutting it down to your needs.
http://www.intensitysails.com/frprublforcf.html
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hobie-16-Rudder-17-18-14-Catamaran-Sailboat-/161491913616
Posted 7 years ago # -
DonKeyHoTey
MemberI'd recommend going with a "OZ-box" (cassette-style) rudder in which the foil section can be extended or retracted vertically, rather than pivoting. You can potentially make it, or you can have a good fg person make it up -- potentially using your existing high-aspect foil.
I've had two failures in 4 ECs with my earlier, hinged custom kickup rudders that were at least partially home-made. These were both due specifically to bolts failing in the vicinity of the hinge and then causing damage to foil tang and/or rudder-stock cheeks. Neither failure involved rudder-foil contact with the bottom.
After the second failure, I converted the still-sound foiled portion of a professionally-made (Jibetech, in RI) foam-cored fg foil into a long, nicely foiled, VERY strong (50") blade with a constant section for the top, non-immersed portion, and a talented buddy laid up a VERY strong fg cassette box to snugly hold it, with bungee wrapped around it to allow foil "kick-out" and automatic return if it hits something. The bungee also securely holds it in place at high speed / under high loads and at the desired level of extension or retraction, though it's probably not needed for these latter functions.
I can highly recommend this setup, having successfully used it in the last EC and a lot of knockabout sailing since then -- including frequent contact with sandy bottoms here in SE FL. And if you are in this area and looking for someone to build it for you, I can recommend my buddy.
Key benefits include: NO BOLTS; simplicity and robustness; the ability to maintain a good foil shape irrespective of extension or retraction; the potential to use your existing high-aspect rudder foil; the ability to reduce wetted surface when desired, in order to maintain optimum degree of weather helm and minimize drag; and did I mention NO BOLTS? Also the ability to use the same rudderstock for different size/shape foils depending on circumstances (eg, blue-water-only vs skinny-water sailing, racing vs cruising, etc). If you want more info, let me know. If you want to adapt a good high-perf foil, and/or someone to build a custom foil and/or cassette for you, my buddy and/or Jibetech (Andy Pimental -- http://www.jibetech.com) might be good starts.
-DKHT
Posted 7 years ago # -
PrivateHam
MemberDKHT,
I think your suggestion nicely solves the problem while allowing me to continue to use the current rudder. I lack the time before the race to do it myself but would definitely like to talk to your buddy to see if it's something that could work. I am in Central Florida so it's close enough for me. I may reach out to jibetech too. Any chance you have some photos of your setup?
Thanks for the links, MicroTom. See you at Tibby's!
Posted 7 years ago # -
PrivateHam
MemberDKHT,
Is what you were describing similar to this?
http://www.storerboatplans.com/wp/design/the-standard-storer-boat-plans-kick-back-dagger-rudder/
Posted 7 years ago # -
danceswithmullet
MemberYou are asking for a second rudder for shallow water, so what is wrong with the original? Non kick up? IMO starting this challenge without a kick up is a recipe for disaster. Rudder or attatching hardware breaks, show over. The rudder should be the most robust piece of hardware on your vessel. Unintentional grounding is a given, the rudder should be able to kick up to at least the draft of the vessel. Should be well above the keel. Not all foils are equal and I can imagine some of the popular foam cores are not up for the challenge. I bought a foil off E-Bay for $50, they claimed for a no longer MFG boat. The seller claimed it was reinforced with SS rods and when I broke one of my good drill bits off trying to drill the bolt hole for the pivot I knew I had a winner. Online metals for the aluminum plate, tiller stock and Duckworks for pintles and gudgeons and I had a bombproof rudder in the $120 range. Do it yourself and know how it works.DWM
Posted 7 years ago # -
PrivateHam
MemberDWM,
It's a kick up rudder currently. The only problem is that it's fairly long, about 36" below the transom so when it's up and horizontal, the helm is loaded instantly. It's an amazing rudder when in deeper water though. I think, given that the EC is so soon, my best option is to be prepared to power down the sails at any moment, which is a good habit anyway. Once powered down, I should be able to use the rudder when kicked up. I ran aground this weekend between mullet key and shell key at Fort Desoto and was able to limp back out into deeper water. It made me wish I had a shoal draft rudder but maybe the better option is a hand on the sheet.
That said, DKHT has a nice design that allows for a retractable rudder that kicks up as well as returns and I may consider something like that for future runs.
Posted 7 years ago # -
DonKeyHoTey
MemberYes, that's the basic approach, PH. MIK Storer uses it on his GIS, and, and. Also seen it on various dinghies like Megabyte IIRC and perhaps some multihulls, and even some bigger boats with a transom-hung rudder and usually also a wet cockpit. Key requirement is the ability to get aft to the rudder to lift or lower the foil, which must be done manually. Can you do that on your tri?
DWM is absolutely right about the importance of a robust rudder. I was going to build mine out of aluminum plate from Online metals, but my buddy did it in fg which avoided any bolts. Instead of using gudgeons, a hollow rod was embedded in the rudder-stock's leading edge, with cutouts for the boat's 2 existing transom gudgeons plus a third one I added at the bottom of the skeg. A smaller diameter rod is inserted down through the embedded rod and holds the rudder to the transom. 2 or 3 rods were embedded in the new long foil. Everything from Online Metals except the new bottom gudgeon from DW. Anyway, I'll try to post a pic of it, and contact my buddy here in W Palm Beach to determine his availability.
DKHT
Posted 7 years ago # -
PrivateHam
MemberDKHT,
I can definitely get aft to handle the rudder (see pic below). Last night I decided that it's a bit too late in the game to make a change of that nature so close to the EC but I'll look for you on registration day to take a look at your setup. The rudder system I have is solid and my plan will be to sheet out if/when I start to hit.
Thanks for the advice DKHT, MT, and DWM!
Posted 7 years ago # -
I did something like this on a small scale for the leeboard on my Class 3 canoe.
Also, it is possible to do a "remote" retraction scheme, at least on a small boat. This picture is from EasyB, one of Skip Johnson's canoes.
I also found pictures of a manufactured rudder cartridge with the name "SeaSure" on them. However, I don't remember exactly where I found the pics... but it looks really nice and robust.
Posted 7 years ago # -
DonKeyHoTey
MemberKarank and Macatawa, that Easy B rudder is even more Goldbergian/Robinsonian than my concoctions. I like it! I think it's at least superficially similar to SewSew's rudder on Sizzor. But if one can reach the rudderfoil easily, it would be hard to beat the SeaSure's elegant simplicity if built sufficiently strong.
DKHT
Posted 7 years ago # -
http://Www.ruddercraft.com also has many solutions to rudder issues/custom builds etc.
Posted 7 years ago # -
PrivateHam
MemberThanks for all of the advice and input. I am considering Rudder Craft, as suggested by backwaterbob, and am emailing with them about the specifics. I like the idea of the gas struts that return the rudder to the down position once shallow water has returned to deep. Has anyone tried one of their rudders before? Their single line up/down is pretty nice too.
Posted 7 years ago # -
DonKeyHoTey
MemberYes, I have bought a number of Ruddercraft/Idasailor foils. Their foils are of molded HDPE, generally in a nice NACA 0012 profile.
One is a Compac 16 foil of approx sf area with 1/4" thick aluminum tang, intended as a kickup replacement lower. Used it on my Sea Pearl like DaveOnCudjoe (IIRC) had done previously; the foil works well and it was entered in two ECs because I commandeered the entire SP rudder as a kickup for my wuzza-Lightning (though proved a bit too small for the SA, and my 30 year old teak SP rudderstock was tired and failed in EC'12). This foil is now marketed by Ruddercraft (was IdaSailor) specifically for the SP retrofit app, for which it is good. But the aluminum tang is vulnerable to being bent if mounted on a heavy boat and gets heavily loaded sideways from, say, contact with the bottom while beaching. I got another long foil from them (discounted) which I have yet to use because it is REALLY HEAVY (it is solid HDPE). Also, even new, these HDPE foils are not as smooth as a well-made wood/epoxy or fg-& -gelcoat / -spray-painted foil, and cannot be painted. And the HDPE is easily gouged or abraded, similar to the bottoms on skis or snowboards. Like them, it can be filled or "patched" with a P-tex candle and then shaved down, but the charred HDPE from the candle will not look pretty in the off-white HDPE, and the foil cannot be made super-smooth.
I believe the Ruddercraft's hydraulic kickup rudder system is relatively heavy by our standards.
-DKHT
Posted 7 years ago # -
JoeVanGeaux
MemberDKHT, I have no experience with HDPE rudders, as such, but have you tried using a hand-held propane torch set to a somewhat lazy flame to "burn"ish the roughness out?
I have had luck with this technique on various non-boat plastics projects where I wanted smooth edges to the cut plastic. (It does get really tricky on fairly thin parts, for sure!)
That being said, I would defintely NOT try this on an expensive/crucial part this late in the game as far as the upcoming EC goes (the one I am still irritated by the fact that I could not properly finish fitting my boat in time for!), but some scrap pieces may prove or disprove this technique for an HDPE rudder.
-JVG
Posted 7 years ago # -
Paddlemaker
MemberI am trying something new, I built a new rudder for my pygmy triple. for the past 8 challenges I have used a seaward double kayak rudder, but always found it a bit underpowered. Then this year, I bought two new falcon sails and found that I needed a bigger rudder. While visiting Tybee Island in January, Savannah Dan and I cut out a new rudder - using a old sun fish rudder. it worked better. when I got home, I decided to build a wooden rudder out of a piece of ash. I am also experimenting with building a foil into the rudder. what a job - the leading edge is about 3/8 inch, then the blade thickens to a bit more than 1/2 inch, and the trailing edge is 1/4. It is much larger than the seaward rudder, I read, Chiefs piece in the 2006 watertribe magazine on kayak rudders where he writes: "Roughly 1.5 sqft for a single and 2.0 sqft for a double - below the waterline" My new rudder is still not quite 2.0 square feet below the water line, but it is huge compaired to my old one. I have take it out paddling and sailing about 10 times and it seems to work fine. I am also expirmenting with a push pull rudder pole. Dan gave me an old bamboo pole. The pole allows me to take my feet off of the rudder pedals, in years past my feet and ankles got very sore after 24 hours in the boat. I am a bit nervous about trying something new. Will the larger rudder over tax my simple Pintles and Gudgeons for my boat, I am using the same system that was with the seaward double kayak rudder. - This challenge has us trying two new systems. - two new falcon sails instead of the pacific action sails and a new home made rudder. I tried to post a picture of the new rudder,
Here is a youtube video of Savannah Dan and I doing sea trials with the falcon sails - I am still using the seaward rudder - but have added a push pull stick.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89Z7M-iSBoc&list=UUDVtQeDk2M-V-i5AEzq8ppg
Posted 7 years ago #
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