CLC Northeastern Dory or Sailing RowCruiser for EC 2022

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CLC Northeastern Dory or Sailing RowCruiser for EC 2022

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Started 10 months ago by SailRat
Latest reply from Kozman

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SailRat
Member

Ok, after a few years of set backs trying to build a boat and do the Everglades Challenge (elderly mother with Alzheimer moved in with my wife, daughter and I shortly after my last post trying to pick a boat, and we finally had to come to terms that we could no longer take care of her so she is socializing at a specialty place for memory patients).

I was intially planning on doing the build and the race with my now 17, soon to be 18 year old daughter, but because she has a very busy schedule playing Travel/Tournament and High School softball and that will most likely not change going forward after next year because of dealing with the same kind of restraints playing college softball. I am now going to build a craft to compete solo. I might still get some help in the shop building her, but that week of the race every year is the beginning of her HS Varsity softball season and I wouldn't want to jepordize her playing because she misses a whole week. So it's going to be a "me" race. Which is fine, I just need to start and go from there, maybe in the future my craft and situation will change.

So, I have had numerous choices go through my head for boat choices and my touch of OCD doesn't help. I have both a canoe (with an expedition spray skirt on) and a fiberglass/kevlar Necky kayak - both of which it's possible to put outriggers and sails on, which might be my next choice for future races, or no sails at all. I might even purchase a Hobie TI in the future. But for now I want to build and sail/row. I have a lot of plan sets to choose from (you know OCD stuff) and I've narrowed it down to the CLC NE Dory and the Sailing RowCruiser - both, if I'm correct have had decent luck and numbers in the EC.

Can I please get some reasons to pick or not to pick either design. I'm really torn between the two, and I have already purchase the ply to build one of them - about the same ply requirements for both really. I love the traditional look and lightweight/easier build of the NE Dory, but the safety and cuddy cabin features of the RowCruiser. Not sure what would be a faster boat in either rowing or sailing situations. And if both designs could really be made to work the same, other than the small cabin on the RowCruiser. I completely understand that no one design is perfect and the weather each season dictates the best boat choice. I ask my daughter and she picks a different boat all together that I have the plans for - she thinks this one looks prettier and has better lines - Welsford Navigator (probably true) or maybe the Core Sound 17 (just not sure either is a great single handed boat choice), and I ask my wife and all I get is "really, you're going to pick and over annalize whatever I say and then do whatever you want anyways - pick what you like". Another OCD thing I guess. I would love to have a few of my other choices and maybe I will build a few more later, but for now I need ONE!

Please let me know as much as possible. I appreciate the help and I plan on starting one of them within the next week or two, the shop is cleaned out and ready.

Thanks, Ed

Posted 10 months ago #
CrazyRussian
Member

It is hard to overestimate a value of a hard shelter on a boat. Especially in EC. No wasting time to set a shelter. Just drop an anchor and go to sleep. I would go for RowCruiser, assuming you modify masts and sails for reefing requirements. But I like multihulls. My second choice would be CoreSound 17. It is a great family boat and she is easy on one person too.

Posted 10 months ago #
AngryBeaver
Member

SailRat,

Hope all is well with you... I;ll throw two cents in having built a rowcruiser and sailed it a few different events in the past 13 months. Just my two cents and certainly not gospel.

First of all the row cruiser goes together quite easily. I would say in the span of 30 hours (excluding CNC time) I had the main hull through bulkheads assembled. Enjoyable having that kind of quick progress. I made several structural modification as I felt the decks were a bit to light and seemed to oil can simply by leaning on them. I strip planked 1/4 RWC on top of the 5mm Okume and it is much more to my liking. In retrospct I would have added a few more deck beams and strip planked without ply. I really like the look of strip planking and its super easy to do.

Depending on your level of finish (at least 35% of total time spent fairing and finishing) you can be on the water (not sailing) quite quickly. Quickl

Crazy Russian is spot on about having a small cabin. Dropping an anchor (I use a 4 pound fortress with 50' of rode and 10' of chain - this held me in a couple 52 knot puffs last year in North Crolina when ZETA came through)..is really, really simply. It take about 1 minute to deploy and tie off to bridle between two akas. I built a sliding hatch versus the hatch cover and have not regretted that decision once.. Super simple to slide open and close.

From there I move 4 dry bags into the cockpit and can be in the arms of morpheus within minutes. I really like that aspect of having a cabin.

The few times I pulled up onto the beach I seemed to have regretted it for one reason or another.. Sand, Tidal change in both direction casuing headaches, etc..

I deviated from Colin's plan extensiveley after building the structures. Right or wrong I'm quite happy with where I am..

I'll mention the evolution and progression of changes I've made. Just my two cents.. First of all the boat started off as a cat ketch. It had sort of an arcane aspect to it and was unique. So I went that route. EC2020 (first event) I was 100% elated sailing from Fort Desoto past chaeckoint 1 on the outside. Why? Self steering for hours at a time. I was really blown away at how well the boat self steered. I literally did not touch the tiller for hours. That was really cool. Performance was good as well. I opted for a larger sailplan as I wanted to be able to push the boat a skosh more. Plus, we have quite a bit of light air in NC in the summer and wanted to sail in breezes under 7 knots with my kids. The cat ketch lost its appeal the next day with an easterly as trying to go upwind from south tip of Sanibel towards shore was really, really difficult. There was a 3-4 chop and it seemed like to get enough punch I was tacking through 110-115 degrees. As this was my first event I opted to head back towards Sanibel and call it a day. Trying to sail upwind into the cut cut between North Captiva and 'forgot the name of the other' into a 1.5 knot current was not possible (for me at that point). Tacking the cat ketch tri took about 30 seconds and had to go through the iteration of trimming mizzin in while easing main, coming through the eye of the wind and the reversing process, falling to get speed and then coming up again was quite difficult to do trying to get into a cut that was quite narrow. In the end I wound up holding off for a couple hours to get into the cut. I'm sure others have mastered the cat ketch to where they are more capable that I however it was frustrating.In the NCU last year I found myself in a similar situation trying to tack upwind in the narrow ICW. Short tacking a cat ketch, in my honest opinon, is less efficient (at least relative to a marconi \ sloop).

So at the beggning of tis year I converted the boat from a ketch to a sloop. Cut down the main to a square head, added a furling jib and a small spinnaker. LOVED IT! I rigged it up on a ball and can lower the mast in less than 10 seconds to get under short bridges (think Harlow canal)..

Top speed with spinnaker (75 squarefeet from a Fusion 15) wing and a reefed main wing on wing DDW was 16 knots. Total control and low loads with easily driven hulls.

First real upwind experience was turning east at Sable point and beating upwind for 14 miles into a 20 knot Easterly to get to Flamingo. Quite a bit of chop. I averaged 3.5knots VMG which felt pretty good to me.

The realt test came the next day when beating into a 25 knot easterly through Bowleg cut,, Very narrow channel a couple hundred yards long. Must stay in the channel or you wind up playing the bump, lift foils and gybe around game. Not so dignified. However, got through the channel with double reefed main and was no problem at all. This would have incredible difficult (dare I say not possible) for me with cat ketch.

I felt like I was sailing a laser at that point. 50 square feet of sail and effortless.

I did build the centerboard a bit longer for upwind performance and that paid off as well..

Second challenge was sailing around shell key to the south and west (will not do that again). Probably 1/2 mile of short tacking in same breeze. Took a while however made progress on every tack.

With the sloop self steering was not as easy. I added a tiller pilot and it worked well. Also added a mirage drive as I would rather use my legs than back and look forward. Personal preference. With turbo fins I can hit 5 knots at 100% power and 4 knots in cruise mode on a windless day.

I can go on a bit here. A bit long winded. If I can be of service please reach out.

Here's a link to some photos.. And a few EC videos wedged in there as well..

https://photos.app.goo.gl/P344zRadVPRLJpDG9

Angry Beaver,

'

Posted 10 months ago #
danceswithmullet
Member

Nice job Angry Beaver. Pretty boat. X2 on the cabin. You will be out in the weather enough,just finding a calm spot to anchor and crash protected from bugs and weather when singlehanding is worth the effort. It my be a little cramped but your standards will drop rapidly during the challenge and your cramped little cabin will feel like the Ritz Carlton after the second day. DWM

Posted 10 months ago #
StumblingThunder
Member

I concur, CrazyRussian and danceswithmullet, having a cabin that you can get out of the elements is so much better than having either to camp or gut through a nap in your drysuit in the bottom of the cockpit. Single handed, your transistions from go to woah is that much faster, allowing for more rest.

Its even better for two, as the off watch can relax a bit more out of the weather. justanothersailor and I could not have pushed the Dovekie as hard without having that covered space to dodge out of the weather. It made the recharge naps work that much better.

I am surprised that the row cruiser with the ketch rig was that much harder to tack. Weatherwork will definitely be weaker than with a sloop rig, but should be better than you experienced. It sounds like you had your center of lateral resistance a little further aft of the center of lift than is optimal. (I am not a sailmaker, but I play one in my mind.)

Stumbling

Posted 10 months ago #
AngryBeaver
Member

ST,

I hear you.

I watch SOS sail upwind a couple of times in the Coresound 22 and he seems to have it nailed. I'm not sure what his tacking angle are. I may have given up to quickly on it however I also like the idea of reducing the weigth aloft by 20 pounds and rigging one main. I suppose personal preference won over desire for something unique..

SailRat.. KOZ (another RowCruiser builder \ sailor) is coming up to Asheville next weekend to check out my set-up. If you are anywhere near Western NC please come on by for a few beers and a chat.

Best,

AB

Posted 10 months ago #
StumblingThunder
Member

AngryBeaver wrote:

ST,

I hear you.

I watch SOS sail upwind a couple of times in the Coresound 22 and he seems to have it nailed. I'm not sure what his tacking angle are. I may have given up to quickly on it however I also like the idea of reducing the weigth aloft by 20 pounds and rigging one main. I suppose personal preference won over desire for something unique..

SailRat.. KOZ (another RowCruiser builder \ sailor) is coming up to Asheville next weekend to check out my set-up. If you are anywhere near Western NC please come on by for a few beers and a chat.

Best,

AB

Thank you for the offer. I haunt WNC at least once a year. Last was in your neighborhood during Christmas holidays. I will keep that in mind when the next opportunity develops!

Stumbling

Posted 10 months ago #
MisterMoon
Member

AngryBeaver, I wonder if the issues you had tack the cat ketch version of your boat is more of 'trimaran problem than it is a 'rig problem'. Multihulls can be cranky coming through the eye of the wind due to higher aero drag and the fact you are dragging three narrow hulls which would prefer to go straight through rather sharp turn.

My Hobie TI needs a little 'kick' on the pedals to get through stays on most tacks.

My old Core Sound 17 cat ketch was a trice to tack: you put the helm over and the boat tacked. You never needed to touch a sheet on the main or mizzen.

Tacking angles on cat ketches aren't like high tech racing sloops, but but they aren't any worse (and in many cases better) than most of the low tech sloops I've sailed in company with.

I typically got 100-105 degrees in flat water, but beating into 25 knots and a steep 3' chop across FL Bay was more like 125 degrees over ground. But we got there.

I would suggest not being so quick to dismiss the cat ketch rig out of hand. They are very easy to sail and perform quite well in my experience.

Posted 10 months ago #
SailRat
Member

Thank you everyone for all the great recommendations. They help very much in my decision making. I can't believe I haven't had anyone put in a vote for the CLC NE Dory. It just shows how much importance the cabin plays. And understandably. I have looked into other designs, larger boats with small cabins or areas to put dodgers but I just don't want ot build anything that much larger. For a couple reasons - I have space set aside in my shop to build up to about 18-19ft (20 if I really pushed it), but the width is the biggest problem because I have a complete wood/cabinet shop in my 3 bay garage/shop and my table saw and a couple other larger stationary tools limit the width to about 5'10"- 6ft, but that is without allowing me to walk around it at all. Plus I just don't want anything that large if it's just me dealing with all the weight and mass. The garage space I have is perfect for strip kayaks and canoes on a strongback and thinner things like that but to take up that much width/space for that long might be an issue in me getting things done for my part-time play/hobby.

AngryBeaver - Thank you very much for the offer to come and look at your boat with KOZ. I really wish I was able to come, but my daughters High School Softball team just started their season (actually today), and I wouldn't miss a game for the world. We've (I should say she!) has been playing for a very long time and it's finally came to these last few seasons before her soon to be college coach takes over, and wherever she lands I might not be able to make it to all of the games. But I do wish I was able to come and see all of your upgrades. Especially the Mirage Drive install. Thank you also for documenting everything so well in your photo blog, that is going to be very helpful and I'm sure I will be looking back on it throughout my build. I found KOZ's Facebook posting of his build also and I'm sure I'll be looking through that as I build mine. Love the idea of the strip planked deck, plus it looks great. And the sliding hatch, just seems simplier. Some of the other modifications I will for sure consider.

I was going to build without having mine cut from a CNC but after looking through things I might look for a local CNC service to have my parts cut, not even sure where to begin to look for that thou. I'm not big on doing straight butt joints on the main pieces like the plans manual calls for and it looks like the CNC parts have a special joint cut into them to help align them and make them stronger. Or I might just cut scarfs in them.

I will have to do more research on the sail choices before I get to that point and I like the idea of just using easier lug sails from RSS like KOZ used, and Duckworks gave me some other options or choices that are possible - like a Portage Pram sail for the mizzen and a Scout sail for the main. And I used to do 24 hr adventure racing and the paddling was always my strongest part so I do plan on keeping the boat set up for rowing, but it would be nice to possibly install the Mirage Drive as a backup or change.

I was thrown a slight curve lastnight while I had everything out and my daughter came into my shop, and wondered why I had narrowed things down to a boat that was mainly for solo use. She informed me she really still wanted to try and do the race with me. Not sure that is possible because of softball so I might discuss the possibility with her coach for next year, just so I would know for sure. I guess I need to ask the ones that are using a RowCruiser or have sailed in one if there is a possibility that 2 people could use it for the race - I know that during a day sail I've seen photos with AngreyBeaver and his children out sailing, which does give me a little hope. But if a 155 pound / 5'6" softball catcher and her dad could sail/row/sleep/etc for the week race. I'm not large by any means at only 150 pounds / 5'8". I was even thinking about changing the setup of the rear compartment area to give it more seating space?? Not sure, because the second mast goes through that area and it's not very wide. Just trying to think through my options.

But I do keep coming back to the RowCruiser because I like the idea of having a cabin to get out of, and for quick sleeping arrangments. Also just the storage space it allows. The trimaran set-up also just seems like a better design (like a Hobie TI does) for the platform that allows other things when it's being used as a "home" for a week. More stable, solar mounting platform, etc.

Thanks again for all the help everyone, keep the ideas and comments coming. I really do appreciate the help it gives me.

Ed

Posted 10 months ago #
ChesapeakeTJAM
Member

SailRat,

The NE Dory is on my list and while I completely appreciate all of the comments and benefits of the cuddy of the row cruiser, in my mind the NE Dory would/could be modified to allow a covered bow and a deployable dodger to allow for a "mini-cabin". I just started my research and am looking to get my hands on some plans. The overall build and the simplicity of the NE Dory is what draws me in. The row seating can also be modified to allow stowage and making them moveable/detachable is possible to increase area for the "min-cabin". Although, all of my brain storming and ideas are based at looking at the pics and construction pics on CLCs site without having seen one in person to see if my vision is doable.

That being said, I have slept on my SUP multiple times during each of my 3 ECs so my standards are a little low. LoL

C-TJAM

Posted 10 months ago #
StumblingThunder
Member

Don't hesitate to run it by CLC. They may take a liking to your idea and run with it for a more official, "Adventure NE Dory™" build, with your additions included, like the Skerry RAID!

Also something that is in the ProKit side is the Waterlust Sailing Canoe. That could be an interesting place to start.

The other one that tickled my fancy would be a slightly scaled up Marsh Duck:

https://duckworks.com/marsh-duck/

- Stumbling

Posted 10 months ago #
SailRat
Member

C-TJAM,

I am completely with you on the reasons for liking the CLC NE Dory. Just the fact that it can be built so easily compared to most of the others makes it a very good choice in my mind. The simplicity of the boat and how lightweight it is also makes it a great choice I think. I have been between being able to do the race solo or as a team and it seems like building the NE Dory covers my bases on that. Build that one and if my daughter can do the race with me it still works, or it works great as a solo boat too. The RowCruiser maybe not as well - I did write Colin and he said I could do it in the RowCruiser with 2 people. Just to be cautious of the second person in the companionway and water coming in while going through big waves. So it's doable there also.

I just posted something yesterday on the CLC Forum site to see if anyone can comment or recommend on a cuddy/dodger arangement for the dory. We'll see if I get anything. I have a hard time believing that something couldn't be made. I have an expedition spray cover for my tripping canoe and I bet something similar could be made for a dory - even with "ribs" to make it raise up a little higher for added room. Even expandable to be used as a front spray cover and then velcro straps undone and expanded and the ribs raised to increase the height for sleeping. Just a thought!

And, Stumbling Thunder, I'm with you, I don't require much in accomodations for such events - I've slept in a bivy sack on the side of a mountain in the winter, so this doesn't deter me. Now my daughter I'm not sure how much she might be willing to accept if she decides to go with me, and don't want it to be the deciding factor in quiting while doing the race either. I still like the idea of the dory and would love to see one with a dodger or something installed. Not just a boom tent, but a working dodger being used while the boat is being used or sailed.

Posted 10 months ago #
FullSpirit
Member

SailRat, did you choose one and start building? I'm late to the party but the Core Sound 17 Mark 3 would be a great choice if your daughter is joining you-- or for the times she will still go sailing with you. Exactly why I want a fast/exciting, easy to rig boat on hand, for those times our son comes to visit (he just finished college).

Posted 8 months ago #
FullSpirit
Member

Edit: double posted

Posted 8 months ago #
Bermudaboy
Member

AB; late to the start, late to finish, and late seeing your link with all the photos.... really awesome & amazing, and enjoyed scouring over each pic... tangently kept thinking from the photo background that you must be in NC somewhere, then I zoomed up on the photo of with her trailered behind till I could see the NC plate clearly... Anyway, yr responsible for making me not take Boomer for his walk first thing this morning, and not checking my work emails for close to 40 minutes... Hope I get a chance to see her close up in June....

Posted 8 months ago #
Kozman
Member

Im going to second AngryBeaver....I started with a ketch, and pretty quickly was dissapointed with upwind performance. I was able to get 13 knots with mine. I would highly recommend the rowcruiser for the cabin, compact size, and ease of building. I am changing to sloop rig, and after spinal fusion, mirage drive as well (thank you AB for all your help with this; mods almost done, sails in hand, ready to get sailing.

Posted 4 months ago #

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