Boat choice for Everglades Challenge / Other than a Core Sound

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Boat choice for Everglades Challenge / Other than a Core Sound

(21 posts) (15 voices)

Started 3 years ago by SailRat
Latest reply from FullSpirit

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SailRat
Member

I'm sorry if this has been covered. I am new to this site and to thinking about doing the Everglades Challenge and have been in the process of wanting to build a sailboat and even maybe race it in the EC. I already have multiple kayaks (both strip and kevlar/glass) and canoes (not a sailing canoe or kayak) but really didn't want to race it in a kayak. I wanted to try it mainly in a sailing type boat. I used to race Thistles on Lake Erie in my college days - probably 3 full Summers of racing and even thought about finding an old Thistle to restore and do the race in after fixing it up or modifying it.

So my question is, short of the multihulls which seem to be winning most things in sailing today, and even the sounds like number one choice of the Core Sound boats, can I get some advice on boat choices. I really wanted to build something, and even though I would like a Sea Pearl or something along that line, I want to build it.

I thought about a sailing canoe - Bufflehead or similar. Really didn't want a kayak, even with sailing rig and outriggers. Already have plans for a Sooty Tern, but I think and have been told it will be too heavy. Also seen the Walkabout that just did it and wouldn't be out of the question to get the plans and do it in one of those. But is there a compiled list of the winningest (sp?) boats used in the EC. I guess I could go through all the results and rosters and put one together but really wanted comments and suggestions.

If anyone has any advice please let me know.

Regards,

Ed

Posted 3 years ago #
DancesWithSandyBottom
Member

Hi Ed,

Opinion:

Whatever you build, become an expert sailing it for a year before enjoying your first EC.

Not sure why you were told a little Sooty Tern would be too heavy. Perhaps you could clarify the lengths of the boats you mentioned and provide additional insights about your preferences.

Based on your comments it sounds like you would enjoy building and sailing a new Core Sound 17 mark3 --from plans, or from the available kit. The CS17 mk3 can be built with or without the self-righting option of its water ballast feature.

You mentioned the Sea Pearl (21') which competes well against the CS20 and CS17; however, while capsize-recovery is easy with a CS17 or CS20, it is difficult and often unlikely with a Sea Pearl. If you go for a Sea Pearl, consult with experts and perhaps consider mounting a float on top of the main mast.

Planning on rowing most of EC? If not, and you are interested in speedy sailing, then avoid a round-bottom double-ended hull. All boats are somewhat double-ended below the waterline, but at higher speeds, say 10kts, the planing hull of a CS17 (or similar ) with its shallow-V stern is a feature you will _greatly_ appreciate.

Comfort is extremely important in completing an EC. On that particular score the CS17 mk3 (with its warm and dry cuddy cabin) is the winner when compared to the open WalkAbout.

The CS17 and CS20 designs are proven winners --www.watertribe.com/Events/RecordBook.aspx. The 3 fastest times in the EC(for Class4 with crew of two) are held by CS boats. The CS20 'DawnPatrol' holds that speed record (2days 0hours 2minutes) as well as the Class4 speed record in the North Carolina Challenge and the the Class4 speed record in the NC Blackbeard Challenge. In Class4(crew of one) the EC speed record is held by "JarHead" and his SeaPearl 21 'Moon Shaddow'.

The main usual reason to build your own boat is ... customization! Working on a CS17 mk3 with consultation from Graham Byrnes (watertribe "Roo"), Alan Stewart ("SOS"), et al., your options are wide open.

Take a look at photos of the CS17 mk3 "Carlita" in the postings during EC'16 on the WaterTribe facebook pages.

--Paul

Posted 3 years ago #
danceswithmullet
Member

If you are solo it is easy to get too much boat. Remember you have to push this off the beach and row into the wind. Sea pearls row well and Jarhead has a system for solo lauching its massive weight, but the Man and boat are one. I would go smaller for a solo. The goat Island skiff looks like an easy build and right for the challenge. There was a nice looking one at the start this years but one of the competitors got sick and they had to drop out. Nothing about buoy racing prepares you for this! Knowing how to sail will do nothing for you! Knowing how to sail in the dark, foul tides, winds like the surface of Mars, large waves, breaking bars, oyster bars, inaccurate depths on charting systems, long term exposure to elements and being able to fix whatever with what you have on hand is what will make sure you will finish. Being a stubborn bastard goes a long way too. Build whatever and sail it in the crappiest weather that comes along, then sleep in it overnight to see if this is right for you. DWM

Posted 3 years ago #
MicroTom
Key Master

List of possible fast boats also pro's and con's

Lightening - Pro's: Fast up wind, points great, shallow, light, symetrical spinnaker generally covers more wind angles than asymetrical, rows reasonably well. Con's: No cabin makes rest difficult, need crew. Need experienced crew for asymentrical spinnaker. Final Note: A Lightening may win one year if the majority of the EC is upwind.

Laser II - Pro's: Planing hull and manageable solo with roler furling jib, fast upwind and down, easy to right. Fast launching asymetrical spinnaker chute. Con's: Dagger board running aground, no cabin, no storage. Note: Laser II expedition model won the first EC.

Others worth researching:

Highlander 20
Johnson 18

Great place for ideas:

http://www.ussailing.org/racing/offshore-big-boats/portsmouth-yardstick/current-tables/centerboard-classes/

http://www.ussailing.org/racing/offshore-big-boats/portsmouth-yardstick/current-tables/centerboard-classes-inactive/

Posted 3 years ago #
MisterMoon
Member

First, the only reason to build a boat is because a) you really want to build a boat or b) the boat you want does not exist on the market.

It's hard to beat a Core Sound 17, but I'm biased. I've got a Mk1 boat and it's almost perfect for the EC. I might could be encouraged to sell it, but only because now I've seen Graham's MkIII, I need one. It is the perfect sole EC boat, IMO.

Before you go any further, be warned that soloing the EC is about 10 times harder than going on a two person boat.

Also, the EC has been completed by boats that had very little testing, but those guys were both really lucky and really good. Get at least a year in your boat before attempting the event. And think about starting with the UM.

If I wanted to build something simpler and less expensive and faster than a CS17, I'd probably be looking at one of Jim Brown's Seaclipper 20 trimarans. Three simple dory hulls and the rig off of a derelict Hobie/Prindle/Nacra, and you'd have pretty nice and capable boat that should in theory wear out most monohulls. (But I can't seem to find how to order the plans, though.) http:/www.searunner.com

Posted 3 years ago #
Ridgerunner
Member

If you are thinking about building a more canpoe-like boat, I have two suggestions. First, check with SOS (Alan Stewart) at B&B Yacht Designs about his sailing canoe. He and Sawhorse have the two finest sailing canoe designs we have seen for the home builder. I am not sure if Sqwhorse's design is available.

Second, the Angus Rowboat (kits and plans available from Small Craft Advisor) sure looks good. We have only seen one in an EC so far, but the boat has great potential.

And, of course, there's the classic Watertribe combination of a Kruger Canoe and Balough BOSS sail.

Posted 3 years ago #
MisterMoon
Member

Looks like John Marples - Jim Brown plans have gone old school for ordering.

If you are interested in the Seaclipper 20 http://www.searunner.com/index.php/seaclipper-20

https://youtu.be/Vep8h6vIg7A

THis is all making me consider building one....

<strong style="color: rgb(2, 2, 2); font-family: "Open Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 23.8px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-size: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial;">Plans – Order from designer,

John R. Marples
295 Bayview Road, Penobscot, Maine, 04476
email: marplesmarine AT gmail.com, phone: (207) 326 8096

Posted 3 years ago #
Moose
Member

I see what you've done here, SailRat. Through reverse psychology, you've somehow talked Mr. Moon into selling his trusty Core Sound 17, which has run the EC course a few times. Close the deal and you'll be set for EC 2017. Very clever. Very clever indeed.

Posted 3 years ago #
SailRat
Member

Moose, funny, and I doubt my few ramblings on changed any of the die hard Core Sound fans. It's hard to fight a winning design and they have that. But with that said I guess I'm going to go with a stretched John Welsford Walkabout design. I'm sure I will have many doubts along the way. But speaking with Mr. Welsford he has a few ideas to make it faster and lighter, along with a streteched length and larger sail plan. Not sure why I'm not doing it in the CS. Still not sure I don't want to try it in a double ender but we'll see. I might build this one and try something else later, you never know.

If anyone knows of any build blogs for the Walkabout please let me know.

On other notes - I have written Alan Stewart at B&B about the canoe plans and he hasn't written me back yet, it was about a week and a half ago I wrote him, and Colin at Angus Rowboats almost had me conviced to do it in one of his Sail RowCruisers - maybe that will be the next build. It's a very interesting boat design. If I get daring enough or my daughter brave and salty enough then maybe I will try a future one in a cat or a more competitive race design. But for now a nice compromise in comfort, safety and speed is in order. Hope I picked a decent design for that.

Posted 3 years ago #
SOS
Member

Hey, sorry to leave you hanging, I try not to let emails slip through but sometimes it happens. I haven't been able to spend a bit of time on plans for the sailing canoe I built for the UFC mainly because I just haven't had a free moment to play with it. We've been flat out at B&B with orders lately and getting ready for our annual family boatbuilding event at the Mystic wooden boat show at mystic seaport. After this week, I'm going to start trying to pick away at it.

Also been working hard on the final updates for the 17 and 20 Mk3 kits after Graham's great finish this year in the EC. Some things learned about the boat and also, kitting Graham's final cabin hatch design.

The canoe is hanging up in the shop, yes hanging to get it out of the way for kits and it hasn't floated since I landed at the ramp :( I put it up for sale but haven't had any bites.

The row cruiser, looks like minded to my canoe but obviously larger and well, you have to row it. It's nice to have a little dry cabin hole though, i ended up tenting it most nights after key largo because the canoe was so small that i had basically hang all my gear that I was wearing in the sails in order to make use of the cockpit as a sleeping space but it worked when i needed it to.

I would love to have a kit version of my UFC canoe available in the near future. Some changes I have in mind are.... slightly wider (about an inch) at the waterline for a tiiiny bit more stability with no amas. The hull was so easy to paddle, I believe the whole boat could be a little bit larger actually without hurting paddling performanceAlso, I think I will design a plywood ama similar to those that i used that can be stitch and glued instead of my foam/fiberglass ones that are a little more complicated to build.

Posted 3 years ago #
MadTortoise
Member

Look at chesapeak light crafts boats I'm building the northeaster dory there's been a few of these in the ec but they've got several boats that would work well

Posted 3 years ago #
Ridgerunner
Member

I was just looking at some videos from R2AK. Look at the Seascape 18. With two or three sailors, it may be a monohull that could win the EC.

Posted 3 years ago #
Bohemian
Member

If I were to home build a boat for EC, I would probably do the Strike 15 by Chris Woods.

Posted 3 years ago #
DonKeyHoTey
Member

Bohemian, that's an interesting boat from a serious go-fast guy. Richard was leading the first R2AK when the multihull speedster he was helming (not his design) suffered a freak rig failure and had to withdraw. Some of Richard's other designs might possibly also be interesting for an EC. But a caveat on the Strike15: she's a daggerboard boat, so I'd want to have a supplemental lift arrangement for the skinny-water stuff.

SailRat, maybe you're deep in stretch Walkabout sawdust already. I've sailed alongside ChucktheDuck Leinweber's stretch (the original one, IIRC) in EC'13? Fast and elegant. The big lug rig with a small mizzen is a very good, fast, simple, but flexible setup for the EC (good for heaving-to, particularly if solo, and for balancing the boat). But, again, the Walkabout is a daggerboard boat, so skinny-water weatherliness has to be addressed. She's a good pulling boat..

If you're not committed, but are still focusing on building a monohull, you might also consider JW's Saturday Night Special. She was intended for the EC, TX200 and similar skinny-water runs. Simpler/cheaper to build and lighter than a stretch Walkabout, she should be an even faster, better sailer, and she has a centerboard for the skinnies....Maybe won't row as fast (?), but hopefully a witchy sailboat won't need to (that much).

I'd ask JW whether a small mizzen like Walkabout's could be rigged on the SNS's tranny, to give her better weather work balance with board mostly up, for heaving to, and as a heavy-air/emergency rig "in case" (for this it would be nice to have a second step at, say, the forward cockpit coaming, providing good helm balance. I'd base the mizzen around a cf sectional sailboard mast (cut down) that could be pulled apart and folded over (with roller-furled sail still bent on) and easily stowed out of the way below when not in use.

MIK Storer's GIS is a serious speedster, and a fun boat to knockabout in, but even if you've raced Thistles until you're raw, I'm not sure about doing 300 miles in a GIS..... I see a swim or three in that effort (see John Goodman's Youtube videos of his adventures) ;) And she's a daggerboard boat..... and she's not so good for sleeping in, without a platform arrangement.

The EC is max one week. I think what to build depends a lot on what you want to be doing for the other 51 weeks a year in a craft you've spilt blood, sweat, tears, and lucre abuilding.

Happy Winter Solstice!

DKHT

Posted 3 years ago #
lugnut
Member

DKHT is being a bit modest. Yes, he did see ChucktheDuck and me in Chuck's stretched Walkabout -- as he and MicroTom were zipping by us in the Naples/Marco area. They were carrying a spinnaker on a broad reach in moderate winds and the extra sail and wider beam made a big difference. The stretch Walkabout is not slow by any means, though. I think it's a bit faster than my Frolic2, Oaracle. I'm positive John Welsford's ideas will be an improvement.

On the daggerboard . . . you pays your money and you takes your chances. I was worried because Chuck did the daggerboard version on the Walkabout, arguing the pivoting centerboard model took up too seating room on the port side of the boat. We had no problem; I think we only tacked about 3 times the whole trip and only scraped the board on the bottom once. However, in 2012, Karank and I tacked 30-plus times in about 1.5 miles fighting the tide getting past Cape Romano in a narrow channel. We'd go until the leeboard kicked up & then tack. Likewise last March HavanMana and I beat up Indian Key Pass the same way. It's shudder inducing to think about doing that with a daggerboard.

Posted 3 years ago #
WindwardMark
Member

There are a few pics of Lugnut and HavanaMana tacking up Indian Key Pass in this blog post:
http://lmsmallcraft.blogspot.com/2016/03/everglades-challenge-2016-day-3.html

Good times!

Posted 3 years ago #
lugnut
Member

WM:

Thanks for the link to the pics; nice shots of Oaracle.

Posted 3 years ago #
SailRat
Member

Sorry so late with my reply. Thanks everyone for all the comments and recommendations.

Posted 2 years ago #
DaveOnCudjoe
Member

SailRat, Sorry to be so late to the party but I've always wanted to see a Jeff Gilbert Hot Chili in the EC. I know you said mono but I believe this design merits consideration. I've finished 5 EC's in a Sea Pearl but you want to build. See plans at Duckworksbbs.com. If you are solo speed doesn't really matter, it's endurance which parallels comfort. Good luck, Dave

Posted 2 years ago #
SailRat
Member

It still looks like it's hard to beat a Core Sound in this event. Great design with a very nice number of finishers each year. Not quite started yet, we have a grueling tournament schedule for my daughters travel softball team so been a little slow to get going. Have the shop ready just need to decide and start.

Posted 1 year ago #
FullSpirit
Member

SailRat, if you want to talk about my experience with Chuck's stretch Walkabout, email me: jerry dot mcintire at gmail.

Posted 1 year ago #

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