ZeroTheHero-I am familiar with your kayak and how it handles. I was showing you how it handles with a smaller sail in high wind conditions. If you do not believe a BSD sail rig cannot handle 60 knots. That OK. Some people still believe in Santa. You were not there and I shared with you a video so you can learn something about BSD rigs. Long kayaks handle like a cat.The reason the long kayaks cannot sail really close to the wind is because you need a jib. BSD mast are too flexible for a jib so I use a schooner. I like the gift of depowering a sail without getting caught in the stays. I ask you a few questions? Can you please point out how many failures of BSD rigs in Watertribe events? You said all these sailboats had problems when they hit bad weather . Were there any BSD rigs there? BSD learns from problems that Watertribers have. That is why the 36 HP was designed. It was designed for Watertribers. You said all sail boats are different so I presumed BSD rigs not needing a rescue is different.?
BALOGH SAIL DESIGNS, (BSD)
(53 posts) (11 voices)-
Posted 4 years ago #
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BeastOarman
MemberMD, I am glad you survived but not sure I would boast of being out in a sailing canoe/kayak in 60 knots. I'm no sailor, but some day I do plan to enter class 3 - when a manufacturer is dismissive about ama failures as being expected within 2 years, that sets off warning bells in my mind. And although you fein to want to know of WT issues, your antagonistic approach has been to derisively shut down those who in this thread have tried to share with you. Remember, we have been in the trenches with these guys, their judgment we trust. But then again, I probably just have not had the chance to meet you at the EC.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Hi BeastOarman, I have to place a limit on all gear because someone will always come back in 10 years after you sold something and claim warrenty. Europe is 2, so I give the same to the Watertribe and all US clients.
As for surviving 60 knots? I had a client survive 60 knots. Do I reccommend it, NO. But he was caught in bad weather. Is it hard to believe any sailor not getting caught in a storm? I sailed in 50 knots but I was new to sailing and did not know the dangers. Someone claimed in 20 knots the akas will bend back, well watch the videos and you will see they do not bend back in 20 +s knots. I am supposed to keep that a secret because Santa will get HURT? I will share videos and if a Watertriber can configure a high performace kayak with what i share, more power to him or her.
I do not want to come between you or your friends or Santa but when I share videos and information I do not like being insulated. I will show and back up my comments with information and will explain BSD equipment to my best of my ability. BSD has been in the Watertribe events for a long time and if anyone makes a statenent about BSD I wish to learn from it. The old Watertribe BSD sailors are great sailors. I learned a great deal from them. A lot of BSD improvements came from them because I listen and respected their skills. I have sold a great deal of products to first time sailors and do not have failures. I thank the old Watertribers for that because I created a better product. Maddave
Posted 4 years ago # -
MisterMoon- If you do not believe a 2 masted schooner sails closer to the wind? I will be happy to show you anytime. New York is too cold now but in Jan I will have a dealer in FL. If any Watertriber needs proof Please feel free to contact me and if you are free in FL this winter. Call 646-269-0587 or davev@baloghsaildesigns.com. See what a BSD can do, I will happy to show you. No fee for the service. Maddave.
Posted 4 years ago # -
HI Bermudaboy, I will send Santa Flowers to heal his hurt feelings. I will also invite him sailing a BSD rig. MADDAVE
Posted 4 years ago # -
<font size="2">http://sailyourkayak.com/blogcupsuptic-flotilla-report-with-2016-dates/
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Posted 4 years ago # -
It is sad that some members on the Watertribe do not take my word or write fiction about BSD. I hope you treat this man with the same respect I have for him!
I got hit by a 50 mph wind and everything worked great. On two occasions I ended up tacking up a channel and I was shocked at how well I was able to tack. I did do a lot of reefing. In fact I would say about 80 % of the time I had a reef in and doing the reef was so easy with the system you have. Thanks again for a great system.
—BillBill Whale with his 38' Batwing™ Expedition on a Kruger Seawind at the Everglades Challenge
Posted 4 years ago # -
Hi Bermudaboy,
I have some free time and have a few questions concerning your comment? What bending mast are you talking about? Or did you mean flexing mast? Did you know why BSD mast flex? If the mast did not flex, the deck or the mast cup would take all the stress. I have seen mast cup failures and damage hulls from mast stress. Mast have bent when kayaks on tralers have hit trees when being moved. This has prevented damage to the kayak. I have reinforce the F mast because Watertribe members have a habit of pushing rigs to their limits, so bent masts for 38 were not uncommon. Watertribe sailors are more gifted in sailing so it were the risk. I try to avoid reinforcing masts of people learning how to sail because of the risk to their kayaks. Where are the lost amas? MaddavePosted 4 years ago # -
Bermudaboy
MemberJust fixing...? Now listen Davie: we have sails that cry, talk, walk, blink and run a temperature. We don't need any chewing ama's! Everybody listen up, Davie wants to be a sailmaker....
Please don't take me so seriously, I think the thought popped up into my head cuz of the Beast O connection... I was just trying to lighten up the tension growing in a very interesting thread. I think a more burning question that finally has to be answered before the start of EC2016 is what and why "Dolly for Sue" was doing on the Island of Misfit Toys? Think about it, have you ever heard offered a plausible explanation? I don't know about other Tribers, but it keeps me up wondering most nights?
I'm sure your products are great & made with lots of thought, passion, craft and sweat. Fun to read about.
King Moonracer out...
Posted 4 years ago # -
<font size="2">http://windagainstcurrent.com/2011/06/30/kayak-sailing-with-balogh-sail-designs/
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Here is another report about BSD.
Maddave
Posted 4 years ago # -
danceswithwaves
MemberHa Tony,
You ain't right. Dolly for Sue ? Seriously, I kinda like the BSD product. I, in fact, have 5 of the rigs. But, Maddave, you do your product a disservice posting that last pic. I'm not going to add fuel to this fire except to say that if anyone would like to contact me off forum to discuss what's wrong with that pic, please go to member services and get my email. Royd
Posted 4 years ago # -
Ha Tony- Here my email, Please send me the reason for the disservice?
Posted 4 years ago # -
ZeroTheHero
MemberWell, I guess I got this thread going down a road I didn't intend to. My appologies as that was not my intent. Maddave, I didn't mean to imply your product was inferior or in anyway not well made. I certainly didn't mean to imply that they were in any way not up to the task of competing in Watertribe events. I mearly offered my observations. Lets not forget I have also been extremely critical of the Hobie TI in another thread, so maybe that shows what I know....
As for 60 knots, your right, I wasn't there.
Posted 4 years ago # -
I'll wrap up my contribution to this thread on a positive note. I like the BSD gear and will continue to use it. For me, BSD and Kruger are the definition of Class 3. Many successful Watertribe finishes are in the records with that combination. I bought my BSD sail and amas used. They had at least one EC finish before I bought the gear. I don't know exactly how old the gear is, but the amas still hold air amazingly well. I am glad that Dave and BSD continue to make their stuff.
Posted 4 years ago # -
ZeroTheHero=I will sit at a table and buy you a coffee or, late nite a beer. Watertribe is here to share knowledge and to learn how to survive a hard race. Without Watertribe testing and questioning BSD, I would have never have known what was lacking in BSD. Maddave
Posted 4 years ago # -
WindwardMark-Thank you. I am here to support your effort to compete in the Watertribe.
Maddave
Posted 4 years ago # -
WindwardMark-When things slow down a little, I look forward to meeting everyone at a Watertribe event.
Maddave
Posted 4 years ago # -
As someone who has broken more kayak gear than most, including a Prijon sail rig (DNF'd) and a BSD rig (UFC 2010), I will share some real world experience.
Adding an AKA to a boat adds stability but creates a few stress points that can fail. The largest and most dangerous is the AKA, notably where the flexing AKA joins the hull. In calm flat water and in "normal" conditions, this is not an issue. When the wind is 140 relative or so, blowin 15-20 and the waves begin to push the boat she will surf on her own. When the boat begins to surf things can go ugly:
- Pushed by the wind, the boat begins to surf at a speed faster than the waves.
- As the boat comes off a wave the bow begins to dip into the back of the wave in front.
- The bow plows into the wave in front of the boat, slowing the boat a tad.
- The sails continue to push the boat forward.
- The bow pushes through the wave in front of the boat.
- Because of the high displacement design of the AMA it does not go through the wave as cleanly as the boat and creates significant drag.
- The drag/stress of pushing the AMA through the wave is transmitted through the AKA to the hull.
- The combined forces of momentum, energy from the wave behind the boat, and the sail push the boat forward effectively dragging the AMA flexing the AKA aft.
This is where things get dicey. If the energy needed to push the AMA through the wave exceeds the strength of the AKA it will break. I know this because I broke one! It was fortunate that I was able to save the boat from flipping, get the sail down, collect the AMA that broke and get to shore without losing the boat.
Dave has since added another doubling tube, it is unclear if this will solve the entire issue. Only by taking a Kruger or other heavy boat, loading it with a WT load of gear and repeating the above events - repeatedly can one be sure it is solved. I am not bashing BSD and would use their product in a heartbeat. But owners need to know not to surf them.
WT events happen on several levels. Some enter them to complete them, Others push gear and body to get there as quickly as they can. Those that push a BSD need to know what can fail to avoid pushing it offshore where it could result in loss of life.
As I am not a frequent visitor any more, feel free to email me if you have any questions.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Hi SnorebringGator,
I do agree with your statement. I have kept a record of failures and have strenghten the crosstube and this has reduced the failure rate almost to 0. The old crosstubes without the reinforcements are the ones mostly that have been failing in the Watertribe events. There is a limit on how strong a crosstube should be. Failure of a kayak could become a problem. Sailing with leeboard down and a deep rudder will help when suurfing.
The old crosstubes can be reinforced.
Maddave
Posted 4 years ago # -
MadDave,
We bought a used BOSS, so I'm not sure how old it is. How can I tell if it is the newer reinforced type or the older non-reinforced type? What part would I order from BSD if I wanted to upgrade to the reinforced tube?
Posted 4 years ago # -
Hi 'again,
If the akas has structs to hold the amas, it is not reinforced. The new aka mounting was the second generation outriggers and may or may not be reinforced. It is easy to see if it is reinforce. Look inside the aka tube and look for a two inner tubes in the aka tube. If you need the system upgraded and cheaked. Send it to me And I will upgraded for a 100.00 plus shipping.
Maddave
Posted 4 years ago #
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