An open letter to WaterTribe EC 2017 participants from 2017 Class II winners(tie) Piglet and AFK

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An open letter to WaterTribe EC 2017 participants from 2017 Class II winners(tie) Piglet and AFK

(21 posts) (11 voices)

Started 3 years ago by Piglet
Latest reply from MisterMoon

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Piglet
Member

An open letter to WaterTribe EX 2017 participants from 2017 Class II winners Piglet and Angry Fat Kid (Tie with Iron Bob and the Juice)

We’ve recently been pointed to some discussion on the forum, that at least partially has to do with us (about shore contact). Do not have too much to offer, but just wanted to actually introduce ourselves, tell you a bit about our race, our process, and let you all know that we are open to thoughts on this. So bear with me, as we will touch briefly on what led is to the WaterTribe and EC 2017, what our actual shore contact us was, and our perspective on an amazing and transformative event

Background:

Daniel and I are part of “Team YogaSlackers” - a professional adventure racing team. Ranked consistently in the top 15 in the world, we are not at all strangers to long endurance events with sleep deprivation and navigation. Some races have had paddling legs up to about 100 miles - usually in shitty SOT kayaks or plastic canoes (ouch). We know Iron Bob and Juice from that world, and have seen their race reports over the years about the EC. Always admiring them for their amazing finishes, and for arguably bringing the AR style Sleep deprivation pushes to the EC.

But we never considered doing the EC, it seemed too hard, too much paddling, and always conflicted with big adventure races in Belize, Patagonia or the Florida sea to sea AR. Last may I had hip surgery, and was not sure how long it would take to recover my running, so I convinced Daniel to bite the bullet and sign up for the EC. Plus we are neighbors and good friends with Dana Clark - who has been out to photograph the race and work Cps for a few years. She has so many amazing images from the event.

In the lead up to the event, we contacted our paddle sponsor (Stellar Kayaks) about using a demo boat from the east coast. They moved a ST-21 from NC to florida for us so that we could fly in. It was the same boat we are able to train in periodically in Oregon where we live. Our AR season ended in Fall, as we began to shift to training for the EC. Oregon’s deepest winter yet saw our actual paddle time in sometimes frozen reservoirs limited. Our max paddle leading up was 22 miles. But we spend hours on the Vasa Kayak erg hoping it would be enough.

A month before the race, we’d just received our charts in the mail and realized the immensity of the choices we’d have in the race. We reached out again to Stellar Kayaks, asking if they knew anyone that had done the race that could help us in the planning. This is how we were put into contact with Salli Odonell, and then she brought in her partner Mike Malone.

We realize that there is some rift between Salli and Mike and the Tribe, but they never told us what it was. They always spoke highly of the event, Druce and Bob, and all the other competitors. They simply told us that they’d had a parting of ways with the Tribe. They agreed to help us with pre-race route planning, and we had 2 long phone consults with them in the lead up. Throughout the event, they were nothing but positive toward us, the Finlays, and all the other competitors who they obviously hold in high regard.

The Race/Nav/shore contact: We used and old school GPS with a B/W display and no way to add Routes or waypoints once the event was underway (a computer was necessary for that and we did not bring one on the race). We only created 2 possible routes for each section, with a few crossover points each. Salli and Mike urged us to do much more, but we were limited on time (I have a 6 week old newborn at home), and we did not at all understand the weather and tide ramifications, and how much we’d want so many alternatives.

We started the race at longboat pass with Bob and the Juice. It was no secret to them that we were there to try to beat them. We were very public about it, and I think/hope that they enjoyed the competition. We look up to them a lot, and were there at the race because of their previous reports. Both were so helpful as well in the lead up to the race, making us feel so welcome and we really appreciated it.

Below is a short detail of our shore contacts during the race, and what information we received:

<ul class="m_3072089103339695894gmail-ul1" style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<li class="m_3072089103339695894gmail-li1" style="margin-left: 15px;">
CP 1. Check in. We were ahead of IB&J by about 1-1.5 hours.
<li class="m_3072089103339695894gmail-li1" style="margin-left: 15px;">
Tiny community near top of Charlotte harbor. Check in about manatee encounter and our capsize in the bay. We were shaken. Got moral support. Were told that nearly all racers (including IB&J) were going to the east of Pine Island to avoid winds. Discussed that this was not an option for us (we had NO points in our GPS for that route - and from where we were would have to paddle 5 mile straight into the wind/fetch). Briefly discussed going outside, and told our shore contact we’d go that way. We soon aborted, and continued slowly through Pine Island Sound.
<li class="m_3072089103339695894gmail-li1" style="margin-left: 15px;">
Near Sanibel point (on small island to the north). Food stop. Reported that we were ok. Learned that IB&J had passed us in the night. Got information about water availability on the tip of land by FM beach (at State park?). We’d planned to stop at the light house, or at a hotel on FM beach later. Got weather update, and decided to paddle the outside route (which we had GPS for) in an effort to have windbreak.
<li class="m_3072089103339695894gmail-li1" style="margin-left: 15px;">
Near Dollar/Doctor’s pass: informed that we were catching the IB&J as they went inside. We informed about our decision to go inside and were advised against it. But went inside anyway. We made some serious Nav errors here, trying to shortcut our way out to the Marco river. IB&J passes us at the mouth when we went up the wrong channel with no outlet (Condos!).
<li class="m_3072089103339695894gmail-li1" style="margin-left: 15px;">
Goodland. Water stop. Informed that IB&J were ahead, having passed the Goodland Bridge about 30 min before us. Got weather update (still windy!), but forgot to ask about/look at tide Data…which was dumb. Thought we saw IB&J lights camping on Coon Key (was not them)
<li class="m_3072089103339695894gmail-li1" style="margin-left: 15px;">
Stopped to sleep in Hammock on Panther Key. No service, so abandoned attempt to contact. Slept 90 min or so, ate hot food, continued.
<li class="m_3072089103339695894gmail-li1" style="margin-left: 15px;">
CP 2 Chokoloskee. After fighting tide into CP 2, we learned IB&J had left over 4 hours ago. We had not enough service for phone, but received a text from contact urging us NOT to sleep and much to CP 2 to make the tides etc like the IB&J were doing. Whoops. Too late. We loved the MUD at CP2 low tide. CP staff suggested going out Rabbit Key Pass instead of Chokoloskee pass, which was our plan anyway, but it was good to have the second opinion.
<li class="m_3072089103339695894gmail-li1" style="margin-left: 15px;">
From here we knew we were way behind. And we had NO FURTHER shore contact until CP 3! We tried to take a route from Pavilion Key straight to Little Shark river entrance, but conditions forced us to abort and go into Plover key, where we shot along the coastline (further out than IB&J upon looking at their track). Our spot died due to water ingress on Leg 2, and chief replaced it at CP 2, only to have it die again because of spot billing issues! Ha.
<li class="m_3072089103339695894gmail-li1" style="margin-left: 15px;">
We took Joes River (this was our first choice route that Salli and Mike had helped us prepare prerace if winds were bad because WW bay apparently does not do well in wind!). We got decent tides here. This whole leg, we knew we were behind, and we just put on our music, ignored our blisters and PUSHED.
<li class="m_3072089103339695894gmail-li1" style="margin-left: 15px;">
CP 3, we were 15 min behind IB&J. They were preparing to sleep when we arrived. We were given wind and weather conditions by our contacts, and told them we too would sleep. We slept right by IB&J/s boat, but they still managed to give us the slip (bravo guys) by 15 minutes out of CP 3.
<li class="m_3072089103339695894gmail-li1" style="margin-left: 15px;">
Florida Bay decision point. Contacted crew (we’d caught and passes IB&J now) and they recommended the Croc Drag over, based the fact that they thought we were still strong enough to really push into the wind. We had it plugged in already so that was good. IB&J also chose this route, keeping close to us by cutting corners that we thought were too shallow etc. we were basically following dotted lines here.
<li class="m_3072089103339695894gmail-li1" style="margin-left: 15px;">
The end. We contacted shore crew after we finished. They were not part of our decision to tie with IB&J.

Notes about the finish: It was amazing to be paddling/racing IB&J so late in the race and to an exciting finish. It was obvious that their route/florida bay knowledge was being put to good use. We could push our boat faster, so would move ahead but often have to search for the routes through shallows or the sneaks between keys. We found ourselves close again in the rough long stretch between Pass Key and Shell key. They had a sweet single blade pumping in the back, and were moving very impressively. Someone said - (I think Druce) - “Its gonna be an epic sea battle!”. We were so happy to be out there. 8 miles to go and everyone still pushing. We talked for a bit as we vied for little edges, surely the conversation helped us all stay awake. It was very pleasant, and it just seemed better to celebrate the finish together.

We decided to see just what our boat could to at that point, and proceeded to “sprint” for about 5 min, holding 7 mph (YEP into the wind and chop). We put about 300 meters or more on them in 5 min. But we also knew that they were pushing some serious speed too, putting their hearts and bodies into…and they knew where they were going.

The last thing we really wanted our first time in the EC was to win by sprinting ahead in the last 100 meters to the beach. It just did not seem like the story we wanted to be part of. So we stopped and looked back at them. They stopped paddling too…and we drifted a few hundred meters apart for a few minutes. We paddled back to them, and them to us. And broached the idea of finishing together in way of celebration of all of our amazing efforts (they’s be beating their best time by a few hours, even with the time modification for the 10 miles we missed of the start). It was wonderful to paddle in together. Only later did we find out our spot was not working, so our ground crew had no idea we were with them. Iron Bob and the Juice are legendary competitors who we look up to immensely. Like them, we primarily Nav with Map and compass, and used our GPS primarily as reinforcement.

We did not ever receive GPS points or routes from our ground crew during the race, and only received the whereabouts of IB&J a few times (all before CP 2). After that the info we got was from CP logs (at CP 2 and 3), and visual (the whole last leg).

Based on our knowledge of the rules and “spirit”of the race, we are pretty confident that this is all ok and within the scope intended. As to Bob’s message on the board about the information we got - almost all of it was after the fact, and did not affect our decisions at all - other than realizing we’d made mistakes that could not really be fixed this time.

Our used if technology and shore contacts was far from “over the top” I think. We are hugely thankful for our contacts, however, as they kept our fans and family in the loop through their reports, and kept us motivated during our toughest times (after the manatee and capsize) in day 1. And their help in pre-planning was essential for us to be able to do so well in our first time in this event. I wish we would have listened to them more when we were planning all the potential routes on our charts!

In closing - we want to say THANK YOU to all of the people that made the race possible - Chief and Paula and all the others whose tribe names we forget or confuse. The people that helped us move our boats to the alternate start, CP captains, etc. It was an amazing adventure. We do endeavor to participate and compete with the highest possible ethics, and are happy to continue the conversation so that we may do so.

We also acknowledge that as “newbies” we may have ruffled some feathers in the establishment by showing up and making a run for the title. But rest assured that we are not “newbies” in the endurance racing world - far from it. And I will be honest, I am not sure when we will be back (kids, other races etc), but when we line up on that beach again it will be in an attempt to break Ardie O’s record of 2 days 22 hours 15 min for class II. We believe in moderate conditions that we can break 60 hours. Gotta dream about the impossible right?!? I figure that sort of dreaming is what led Chief into creating this race in the first place.

All the best. And thanks again to Iron Bob and the Juice for being such amazing and inspirational paddlers and athletes and people.

Jason and Daniel

Posted 3 years ago #
Piglet
Member
Piglet wrote:

An open letter to WaterTribe EX 2017 participants from 2017 Class II winners Piglet and Angry Fat Kid (Tie with Iron Bob and the Juice)

We’ve recently been pointed to some discussion on the forum, that at least partially has to do with us (about shore contact). Do not have too much to offer, but just wanted to actually introduce ourselves, tell you a bit about our race, our process, and let you all know that we are open to thoughts on this. So bear with me, as we will touch briefly on what led is to the WaterTribe and EC 2017, what our actual shore contact us was, and our perspective on an amazing and transformative event

Background:

Daniel and I are part of “Team YogaSlackers” - a professional adventure racing team. Ranked consistently in the top 15 in the world, we are not at all strangers to long endurance events with sleep deprivation and navigation. Some races have had paddling legs up to about 100 miles - usually in shitty SOT kayaks or plastic canoes (ouch). We know Iron Bob and Juice from that world, and have seen their race reports over the years about the EC. Always admiring them for their amazing finishes, and for arguably bringing the AR style Sleep deprivation pushes to the EC.

But we never considered doing the EC, it seemed too hard, too much paddling, and always conflicted with big adventure races in Belize, Patagonia or the Florida sea to sea AR. Last may I had hip surgery, and was not sure how long it would take to recover my running, so I convinced Daniel to bite the bullet and sign up for the EC. Plus we are neighbors and good friends with Dana Clark - who has been out to photograph the race and work Cps for a few years. She has so many amazing images from the event.

In the lead up to the event, we contacted our paddle sponsor (Stellar Kayaks) about using a demo boat from the east coast. They moved a ST-21 from NC to florida for us so that we could fly in. It was the same boat we are able to train in periodically in Oregon where we live. Our AR season ended in Fall, as we began to shift to training for the EC. Oregon’s deepest winter yet saw our actual paddle time in sometimes frozen reservoirs limited. Our max paddle leading up was 22 miles. But we spend hours on the Vasa Kayak erg hoping it would be enough.

A month before the race, we’d just received our charts in the mail and realized the immensity of the choices we’d have in the race. We reached out again to Stellar Kayaks, asking if they knew anyone that had done the race that could help us in the planning. This is how we were put into contact with Salli Odonell, and then she brought in her partner Mike Malone.

We realize that there is some rift between Salli and Mike and the Tribe, but they never told us what it was. They always spoke highly of the event, Druce and Bob, and all the other competitors. They simply told us that they’d had a parting of ways with the Tribe. They agreed to help us with pre-race route planning, and we had 2 long phone consults with them in the lead up. Throughout the event, they were nothing but positive toward us, the Finlays, and all the other competitors who they obviously hold in high regard.

The Race/Nav/shore contact: We used and old school GPS with a B/W display and no way to add Routes or waypoints once the event was underway (a computer was necessary for that and we did not bring one on the race). We only created 2 possible routes for each section, with a few crossover points each. Salli and Mike urged us to do much more, but we were limited on time (I have a 6 week old newborn at home), and we did not at all understand the weather and tide ramifications, and how much we’d want so many alternatives.

We started the race at longboat pass with Bob and the Juice. It was no secret to them that we were there to try to beat them. We were very public about it, and I think/hope that they enjoyed the competition. We look up to them a lot, and were there at the race because of their previous reports. Both were so helpful as well in the lead up to the race, making us feel so welcome and we really appreciated it.

Below is a short detail of our shore contacts during the race, and what information we received:

CP 1. Check in. We were ahead of IB&J by about 1-1.5 hours.

Tiny community near top of Charlotte harbor. Check in about manatee encounter and our capsize in the bay. We were shaken. Got moral support. Were told that nearly all racers (including IB&J) were going to the east of Pine Island to avoid winds. Discussed that this was not an option for us (we had NO points in our GPS for that route - and from where we were would have to paddle 5 mile straight into the wind/fetch). Briefly discussed going outside, and told our shore contact we’d go that way. We soon aborted, and continued slowly through Pine Island Sound.

Near Sanibel point (on small island to the north). Food stop. Reported that we were ok. Learned that IB&J had passed us in the night. Got information about water availability on the tip of land by FM beach (at State park?). We’d planned to stop at the light house, or at a hotel on FM beach later. Got weather update, and decided to paddle the outside route (which we had GPS for) in an effort to have windbreak.

Near Dollar/Doctor’s pass: informed that we were catching the IB&J as they went inside. We informed about our decision to go inside and were advised against it. But went inside anyway. We made some serious Nav errors here, trying to shortcut our way out to the Marco river. IB&J passes us at the mouth when we went up the wrong channel with no outlet (Condos!).

Goodland. Water stop. Informed that IB&J were ahead, having passed the Goodland Bridge about 30 min before us. Got weather update (still windy!), but forgot to ask about/look at tide Data…which was dumb. Thought we saw IB&J lights camping on Coon Key (was not them)

Stopped to sleep in Hammock on Panther Key. No service, so abandoned attempt to contact. Slept 90 min or so, ate hot food, continued.

CP 2 Chokoloskee. After fighting tide into CP 2, we learned IB&J had left over 4 hours ago. We had not enough service for phone, but received a text from contact urging us NOT to sleep and much to CP 2 to make the tides etc like the IB&J were doing. Whoops. Too late. We loved the MUD at CP2 low tide. CP staff suggested going out Rabbit Key Pass instead of Chokoloskee pass, which was our plan anyway, but it was good to have the second opinion.

From here we knew we were way behind. And we had NO FURTHER shore contact until CP 3! We tried to take a route from Pavilion Key straight to Little Shark river entrance, but conditions forced us to abort and go into Plover key, where we shot along the coastline (further out than IB&J upon looking at their track). Our spot died due to water ingress on Leg 2, and chief replaced it at CP 2, only to have it die again because of spot billing issues! Ha.

We took Joes River (this was our first choice route that Salli and Mike had helped us prepare prerace if winds were bad because WW bay apparently does not do well in wind!). We got decent tides here. This whole leg, we knew we were behind, and we just put on our music, ignored our blisters and PUSHED.

CP 3, we were 15 min behind IB&J. They were preparing to sleep when we arrived. We were given wind and weather conditions by our contacts, and told them we too would sleep. We slept right by IB&J/s boat, but they still managed to give us the slip (bravo guys) by 15 minutes out of CP 3.

Florida Bay decision point. Contacted crew (we’d caught and passes IB&J now) and they recommended the Croc Drag over, based the fact that they thought we were still strong enough to really push into the wind. We had it plugged in already so that was good. IB&J also chose this route, keeping close to us by cutting corners that we thought were too shallow etc. we were basically following dotted lines here.

The end. We contacted shore crew after we finished. They were not part of our decision to tie with IB&J.

Notes about the finish: It was amazing to be paddling/racing IB&J so late in the race and to an exciting finish. It was obvious that their route/florida bay knowledge was being put to good use. We could push our boat faster, so would move ahead but often have to search for the routes through shallows or the sneaks between keys. We found ourselves close again in the rough long stretch between Pass Key and Shell key. They had a sweet single blade pumping in the back, and were moving very impressively. Someone said - (I think Druce) - “Its gonna be an epic sea battle!”. We were so happy to be out there. 8 miles to go and everyone still pushing. We talked for a bit as we vied for little edges, surely the conversation helped us all stay awake. It was very pleasant, and it just seemed better to celebrate the finish together.

We decided to see just what our boat could to at that point, and proceeded to “sprint” for about 5 min, holding 7 mph (YEP into the wind and chop). We put about 300 meters or more on them in 5 min. But we also knew that they were pushing some serious speed too, putting their hearts and bodies into…and they knew where they were going.

The last thing we really wanted our first time in the EC was to win by sprinting ahead in the last 100 meters to the beach. It just did not seem like the story we wanted to be part of. So we stopped and looked back at them. They stopped paddling too…and we drifted a few hundred meters apart for a few minutes. We paddled back to them, and them to us. And broached the idea of finishing together in way of celebration of all of our amazing efforts (they’s be beating their best time by a few hours, even with the time modification for the 10 miles we missed of the start). It was wonderful to paddle in together. Only later did we find out our spot was not working, so our ground crew had no idea we were with them. Iron Bob and the Juice are legendary competitors who we look up to immensely. Like them, we primarily Nav with Map and compass, and used our GPS primarily as reinforcement.

We did not ever receive GPS points or routes from our ground crew during the race, and only received the whereabouts of IB&J a few times (all before CP 2). After that the info we got was from CP logs (at CP 2 and 3), and visual (the whole last leg).

Based on our knowledge of the rules and “spirit”of the race, we are pretty confident that this is all ok and within the scope intended. As to Bob’s message on the board about the information we got - almost all of it was after the fact, and did not affect our decisions at all - other than realizing we’d made mistakes that could not really be fixed this time.

Our used if technology and shore contacts was far from “over the top” I think. We are hugely thankful for our contacts, however, as they kept our fans and family in the loop through their reports, and kept us motivated during our toughest times (after the manatee and capsize) in day 1. And their help in pre-planning was essential for us to be able to do so well in our first time in this event. I wish we would have listened to them more when we were planning all the potential routes on our charts!

In closing - we want to say THANK YOU to all of the people that made the race possible - Chief and Paula and all the others whose tribe names we forget or confuse. The people that helped us move our boats to the alternate start, CP captains, etc. It was an amazing adventure. We do endeavor to participate and compete with the highest possible ethics, and are happy to continue the conversation so that we may do so.

We also acknowledge that as “newbies” we may have ruffled some feathers in the establishment by showing up and making a run for the title. But rest assured that we are not “newbies” in the endurance racing world - far from it. And I will be honest, I am not sure when we will be back (kids, other races etc), but when we line up on that beach again it will be in an attempt to break Ardie O’s record of 2 days 22 hours 15 min for class II. We believe in moderate conditions that we can break 60 hours. Gotta dream about the impossible right?!? I figure that sort of dreaming is what led Chief into creating this race in the first place.

All the best. And thanks again to Iron Bob and the Juice for being such amazing and inspirational paddlers and athletes and people.

Jason and Daniel
Posted 3 years ago #
danceswithmullet
Member

Good to hear your version. This has been floating on the coconut telegraph but I never put much faith in it. Please let's discuss this in the open so we can be clear in future what is considered acceptable outside help. Sounds like you pushed it maybe a little past what is supposed to be unsupported but that is just my 2 cents. The challenge is a collection of hard won lessons you pay for dearly your first couple of attempts. To have an experienced crew talk you through the hard lessons to me seems not paying your dues. That frigging paddle when done solely on your own wits and decisions is worth it's weight in gold. DWM

Posted 3 years ago #
BeastOarman
Member

Thank you for sharing Jason and Daniel.

I was on the sidelines this year, but enjoyed hearing of your progress. I would never root for anyone to beat Bob and Druce, but I do appreciate you giving them a challenge!

In my opinion and observation, one of the greatest qualities of the EC is that it allows every challenger a lot of latitude in defining how they will challenge themselves. DWM is right that putting yourself out there without a net, so to speak, is a priceless experience. But what is challenging for me may not be the challenge you seek - so I for one will respect that you challenged yourselves and even more so, that you showed your fellow challengers true respect and sportsmanship.

Now when you are ready for a real challenge, do this race overweight, with 3 times the gear and food you need, and minimal physical training. And oh yeah, just for kicks, do it without looking where you are going!

Congratulations on your finish, and hope to see you back - the EC has its way of doing that.

Posted 3 years ago #
MicroTom
Key Master

BeastOarman wrote:
"In my opinion and observation, one of the greatest qualities of the EC is that it allows every challenger a lot of latitude in defining how they will challenge themselves"

X2

You guys did great and it sounds like you got everything that a good EC has to offer. Congrats on your success. Awesome story about getting dumped by a manatee. It would be great to hear the full story, how you were able to recover, and how it impacted you guys going forward (Cold, wet gear, lost items, etc)

I am not rule expert but I think your well within the rules. Quite frankly the only rules I like to see enforced are the onces that address saftey and to keep some level of organization going. I realize some of you have a burning desire to race and win but for me the emphasis is on adventure in adventure race. Those who race for the win are tribe within the Tribe. I still believe the real winners are the ones who spend the full allotted time on the course enjoying the beauty of it all while having a personal challenge. But that's another reason the EC and adventure racing in general is great because it can be different things to different people.

Posted 3 years ago #
MisterMoon
Member

I agree with MT, I don't see where Piglet and AngryFatKid did anything wrong. They didn't really get any info from their shore contact that could not have been gleaned from a few minutes on the the WT site on their smartphone or talking to the CP captains when they arrived. I'll admit to talking to friends on the course during years where I didn't compete. We've talked about where people were, what the weather forecasts said versus what they were seing on the ground, and about their strategies. I wasn't routing anyone, but I've been asked my opinion on what I'd do in given situation. And when on challenges, I've spoken to other racers at CPs or even on the VHF about what were our plans. It's all part of the experience.

The reality is the EC isn't so much as an expedition into the unknown as it was 10 years ago. There are a lot people who've been successful who have been generous sharing information about routes, tactics, strategy, and preparation either in conversations or in write-ups following the event. I'd put IronBob as one of those people. His written account from last year was a textbook on how to to do the EC fast in a class 2 boat.

I have great admiration for the folks who were succesful in the early days of the EC because they did it without the huge collective pool of knowledge that has been passed down by folks who went before them. If WT's mission is to "to encourage the development of boats, equipment, skills, and human athletic performance for safe and efficient coastal cruising using minimal impact human and wind powered watercraft based on kayaks, canoes, and small sailboats" I'd say it's been a success. If we didn't share what we learned, then it would impossible to live up to the lofty ideals set forth in WT's mission statement.

Posted 3 years ago #
Chief
Coastal Vagabond

Great story!

Some of the comments I made about no GPS and no routes in the GPS were due to multiple tribe members in that condition. I think many newbies don't realize that they need multiple routes and routes for all the passes. At a minimum everyone should have an inside route and an outside route between each checkpoint. Add in short routes for all the passes. Then add in a few other "escape" routes for when the weather is really, really bad.

Regarding support via phone calls, it is all OK. Virtually ALL racers get updates on their competition and coaching. I'm sure there are a few that don't do that, but that is up to them. There is no rule against it.

The rule about no support is intended for material support along the course. For example, we don't allow "bank runners" that deliver food and water periodically like many river races allow. You can resupply yourself anywhere you want, but you can't have someone deliver stuff to you. Nothing like that happened in this event. However, we did bend the rule a couple of times at some of the checkpoints. For example, I did allow one challenger's wife to give him a hamburdger at CP2. There were a couple more similar bends to the rule. But in all cases these were challengers well back in the pack. Getting one hamburger when it is just a short walk to the Cuban restaurant isn't really a big deal.

On the flip side of bending the rules, I offered the room we had at Choko to the SandyBottom, Kiwibird, and GadgetGirl figuring that they might want a little privacy and a comfortable room. Nope! All three said it was against their rules and they wanted to camp.

Regarding your shore contacts, I don't have a problem. Although we did have a parting of ways, I have no doubt that they gave you valuable advice prior to the event and that they served you well during the event as your shore contact. You and they did nothing against the rules.

I hope that we see both of you in future events. I know it would be an epic battle trying to break the current record for the EC in class 2. But if you want an even harder challenge, try to break Verklen Kruger's record while trying to beat BeaV in the MNKC2017. You want a tough event? This one takes the cake and smashes it into your face!

Posted 3 years ago #
IronBob
Member

Piglet, good story, thanks for your open letter post. We, IB&J, we're happy that you entered this race and were super happy you were there to give us a race! I've never shied away from a fight. That's why I contacted you beforehand and Druce and I worked so hard to make sure we were all on the same start beach for Sunday morning. We hope we may all do this race again, although after five years in a row of driving out to Florida and back, IB&J may need a break next year.

During the race, being as tired and loopy as any one would be, racing as hard as we all were, I may have incorrectly interpreted things you told us and/or things I thought I heard in your phone coversation with FeralCat at CP3 and even on the water a few miles out from CP3. If so, I apologize.

However, I still maintain the aid/info you recieved from your shore contact, who you've refered to as your ground support team, was over the top. However, I get it; (1) it is a lot of fun to keep friends and family informed as the race transpires, (2) you were acting according to your interpretation of the rules, and (3) post race the tribe agrees with you. What do I mean by 'over the top', who knows, perhaps I don't know either. After all, once off the Naples coast, we too called our shore contact to determine your position. So, I am flawed according to my own standards of 'no support'. In the end, we all have to paddle the distance, and you guys did a great job of that!

We do respect you and Daniel, the Team Yoga Slackers and this new Team P&AFK. As I told you after the race, your enthusiasm for adventure racing is infectious. You may not know this, but that enthusiasm, infected this old adventure racer in a very positive manner. If you guys are ever down this way in the Mohave Desert, stop by and we'll do some training together.

Hope to see you on the beach again...

Posted 3 years ago #
Chekika
Member

On the WaterTribe Home page, it states,

“The purpose of WaterTribe is to encourage the development of boats, equipment, skills and human athletic performance for safe and efficient coastal cruising using minimal impact human and wind powered watercraft based on sea kayaks, canoes, and small sailboats.” ~ Chief, February 2000

What does expedition-style mean? It means that you need to be self-sufficient and carry all the supplies and equipment that you would expect to carry on a major kayaking or sailing expedition. This is not a “round the buoys” race with an empty boat and someone watching out for your safety. You are on your own."

Cell phones are “Required Equipment” just like SPOT, EPIRB/PLB, VHF radio. As Chief said, cell phones are considered safety equipment. Still, cell phones were used heavily by P&AFK to not only track their competition, but get advice on routes to take underway, and even to use the same route that the very experience IB&J used. Without that information, there is no way that these “newbies” P&AFK could have kept up with IB&J. Clearly, P&AFK are fierce competitors. It also seems clear that they may have violated the spirit of the EC.

Keith

Posted 3 years ago #
SwampMonkee
Member

Technology really has change the game over the last several years and coming from a sailracing background, we've had to deal with it there as well. The waterrribe rules are vague in many respects and leave room for interpretation.....by the "Chief Interpreter". In many sail races information that is publicly available is fine. For example tracking can be accessed by anyone, and how a competitor gets that info is irrelevant, whether through a private cell phone call or using your own smart phone. What's generally not allowed is private "advice" like routing and weather analysis that isn't available to every competitor. If it's tailored to you where you are, it's off limits. Chainsaw and I like this approach and it's how we sail the EC even though we could access more outside assistance. There is also part of me that doesn't even like looking at tracking info (old school). I competed in a 200 mile offshore race in 2001 on Lake Huron, way before tracking. We got hit with a gale and sailed for 22 hours in it and only saw one boat out of 68 total. Figured we were DFL and we ended up being the only boat to finish. Just worked hard the whole way and fought through a tough ordeal. There is something to be said for "self contained" and the satisfaction it brings.

I can relate to Iron Bobs feelings (and really missed jaw-boning with you on the beach). It's a great event either way and the sense of accomplishment for competing and finishing is extraordinary. It's also great that until someone has done it there is no way possible to explain how tough it is.

See you all in 2018.

Posted 3 years ago #
Piglet
Member

Chekika wrote:

On the WaterTribe Home page, it states,

“The purpose of WaterTribe is to encourage the development of boats, equipment, skills and human athletic performance for safe and efficient coastal cruising using minimal impact human and wind powered watercraft based on sea kayaks, canoes, and small sailboats.” ~ Chief, February 2000

What does expedition-style mean? It means that you need to be self-sufficient and carry all the supplies and equipment that you would expect to carry on a major kayaking or sailing expedition. This is not a “round the buoys” race with an empty boat and someone watching out for your safety. You are on your own."

Cell phones are “Required Equipment” just like SPOT, EPIRB/PLB, VHF radio. As Chief said, cell phones are considered safety equipment. Still, cell phones were used heavily by P&AFK to not only track their competition, but get advice on routes to take underway, and even to use the same route that the very experience IB&J used. Without that information, there is no way that these “newbies” P&AFK could have kept up with IB&J. Clearly, P&AFK are fierce competitors. It also seems clear that they may have violated the spirit of the EC.

Keith

Just one problem with the above idea you state. We almost never took the same route as IB&J. We were ahead of them all the way to CP1. We went in Pine Island sound, they went east of pine island. They went inside @ FM beach, we went outside, and then swapped (unknown to us) at Dollar pass to Marco river. We both took Marco River. They took West Pass (I think that is what IB&J said) which we know nothing about, we took Indian Pass to CP 2. From CP2-3, we both stayed outside, but we stayed way further out, and they closer in - and we had NO shore contact at all from before CP 2 to CP3. So truly - other than the last leg (which we passed them about 30 min out of Flamingo, made the decision to go Croc drag and then they "followed" us - we rarely tood the same route. Just take some humorous offense at the "there is no way these newbies could have kept up with IB&J". Newbies is not a word I would use to describe Dan and I, and if you were to ask IB&J, I am betting they would not use that word either. We've been around the world competeting and podiuming on some of the most difficult endurance events on the planet. Over and over again. This just happened to be our first foray into the purely paddle races.

And if there is such a clear spirit of EC that we violated, I think it should be made more clear. It was suggested over and over again that we consult with sesoned racers in planning, especially if we wanted to compete with IB&J. We did just that.

I just find it funny and a bit sad the response of some people finding an excuse for our doing so well in our first EC. We trained hard, took it very seriously, planned, secured the best equipment we could, nutrition plan, and consult, and we achieved our goal. Shouldn't that be celebrated instead. We certainly DID NOT think we were cheating in any way (why would we come into a new community and "cheat" to try and win a race that inspires us to push into a new realm like this one?!?) And ultimately, winning was less important to us than celebrting a epic battle with IB&J by paddling the last 5 miles together. That was certainly the highlight for me.

Posted 3 years ago #
Chief
Coastal Vagabond

There is another aspect of this that some of you are overlooking. IronBob and TheJuice were in friendly competition with Piglet and AngryFatKid. Both teams worked together to find a good launch point. They both knew they were going against each other. It was a great battle all the way to the end when they agreed to arrive as a tie.

Yes, Piglet and AngryFatKid got some coaching while on the water. There is nothing in the rules that prohibits this. But keep in mind that IronBob and TheJuice had years of experience on this course. They have done the course many times in a whole range of weather. I think a little coaching by cell phone was a fair trade against the experience the other team had.

It was fun to watch and I hope to see them battle it out again soon.

Posted 3 years ago #
Chekika
Member

Just because you are very experienced at AR, doesn't mean you are not "newbies" in the Everglades Challenge. And, I did not mean anything negative, simply that is what you were. Most newbies probably drop out. Clearly, you were not that type of "newbie."

As I said, you are fierce competitors. It still stands that you seemed to get a considerable amount of phone support from your very experienced ground support as they looked at the tracking map and weather reports. Yes, you may have been able to get some of this info yourself on the water, but it is not the same and not nearly as easy as your ground support providing that info.

"Just take some humorous offense at the "there is no way these newbies could have kept up with IB&J". "

I will stand by that comment, which is taken out of context. The full statement was,
"Without that information, there is no way that these “newbies” P&AFK could have kept up with IB&J."

I will freely admit I am not an AR competitor and have never had any such inclination.

Keith

Posted 3 years ago #
IronBob
Member

Thank you Chief for your comment on the nature of the competition between P&AFK and TheJuice and I as being friendly. Yes it was and will continue to be so.

Posted 3 years ago #
IronBob
Member

Piglet wrote:

And ultimately, winning was less important to us than celebrting a epic battle with IB&J by paddling the last 5 miles together. That was certainly the highlight for me.

Well said Jason and right on!

Posted 3 years ago #
IronBob
Member

As perhaps a final note, from me anyway; I have always been kind of a traditionalist, some would say stubborn.

Perhaps my WaterTribe name should be CaptainCurmudgeon.

Posted 3 years ago #
CrazyRussian
Member

You know guys. I have spent significant amount of my time spilling up all the info I have and coaching some guys prior to a challenge. Unfortunatelly I have never been the shore support guy, otherwise I would be planning all the possible routes and doing strategies for the team, even if they wouldn't need it. I just don't see where the conflict is. No matter how good the guy behind a computer, he can't drive someone who can't paddle. The 16 year's history of Watertribe is the history of newbies breaking records. Almost every year we have a newbie doing better than veterans.
I would rather create a calling center where the all of us, strained on a shore, would make ourselfs available for any advise or tip competitors may need during the challenge. We are sort of having it already in form of discussion board and FB. But we may create 24/7 center. Why not? If you need an advise/second opinion on chosen route why not to call/ access all the watertribe's wisdom...

Posted 3 years ago #
Chekika
Member

CrazyRussian wrote:

I would rather create a calling center where the all of us, strained on a shore, would make ourselfs available for any advise or tip competitors may need during the challenge. We are sort of having it already in form of discussion board and FB. But we may create 24/7 center. Why not? If you need an advise/second opinion on chosen route why not to call/ access all the watertribe's wisdom...

+1

What could be done is some people could make themselves available for certain sections. I have sailed the coast from FtDesoto down, but I am most knowledgeable from Goodland down to Flamingo, especially on the coastal waters. I would be happy to man a phone for that stretch.

Keith

Posted 3 years ago #
Chief
Coastal Vagabond

We already have a 24/7 call center for these events. It's called the Important Numbers sheet. It contains the cell phone number for me, the Race Manager, and the CP Captains. Add to that the allowable, recommended, and required Shore Contact and I don't see a problem.

I repeat. No rules were broken. The Spirit of the Rules was not broken.

Posted 3 years ago #
ZeroTheHero
Member

Not here to judge anyone, just wanted to share my own experiences that are along similar lines.

In the 2013 EC that I did with my wife we got a call from Mistermoon at CP2. He actually called Plumbcrazy who was at the CP spectating and PC handed us his phone. It was just a call to let us know he was watching our progress and that we were doing great. He then told us we should get as far south as possible that day because the wind was going to shift to a westerly and it would be great to ride that across FL Bay. With that in mind we left CP2 not long after hanging up and sailed till the wind shut off around dusk. We anchored in Ponce De Bay, near the mouth of the Shark River. I slept fitdully that night, hoping to catch the shift and get moving quickly. I felt the shift around 4 a.m. and we were up quickly and moving to CP3. We made a guick stop there and then headed across FL Bay. A 20 knot tailwind had us across the bay by cocktail hour. About an eight hour crossing. Mistermoon's info was helpful. I don't think it really changed our race much but I may have slept in later that final morning and we would have finished later that night.

In 2014 as Per and I were rowing across FL. Bay, my wife called us. She was all excited. We were indeed catching up to Twobeers and some on Facebook were even predicting we would pass them. She was cheering for us to row harder and get ahead. We were in Twisty mile at the time. We never did catch them as the wind shut off, and Per and I ran out of gas that night. we definitely switched into a new gear for a while there.

In every challenge I have been in I have looked at the tracker. Usually around the checkpoints. Mostly it is just to see how friends are doing, but I have looked at whatever class I am in to see where we are. I also jump onto social media to see what info I can get, who is dropping out, if there were rescues, etc.

Posted 3 years ago #
MisterMoon
Member

Posted 3 years ago #

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